Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 33-37. Let's dive in!
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Synopsis:
Wow! For people who say nothing happens in this book, these 50 pages were chockful of activity. Katie shoots a murdering sex fiend who tries to attack Francie, Sissy adopts a baby and lies and says she gave birth, Johnny dies, and Katie's pregnant! So much going on!
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Things I looked up:
Sullivan Law (pages 253, 263): A gun control law in New York state that took effect in 1911. It requires licenses for New Yorkers to possess firearms small enough to be concealed. Private possession of such firearms without a license was a misdemeanor, carrying in public is a felony. The law was the subject of controversy both in its selective enforcement and the licensing bribery schemes it enabled. In 2022 (last year!), the US Supreme Court struck down the law as unconstitutional because "the Second Amendment protects the right of law-abiding people to carry a gun outside the home for self-defense and that the Sullivan Law, which makes that virtually impossible for most New Yorkers, is unconstitutional" (Samuel Alito), although the registration requirements of the law still stand.
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 33:
"I had to hit her with the gun to make her let go of the banister," Katie explained. He noticed her bruised knee.
"What's this?"
"That's where I had to drag her along the hall." Then he got to the angry burn just above her ankle. "And what in the name of God is this?"
"That's where her father washed her leg with carbolic acid where that man touched her."
"My God!" exploded the intern. "You trying to give her third-degree burns?" He opened the bag again, put cooling salve on the burn and bandaged it neatly. "My God!" he said again, "between the two of you, you did more damage than the criminal." (Page 259)
(Also, at one point Zelda the Cat puked on a blanket on the couch. I did not notice until I sat down and felt it on my leg. I pseudo-screamed "it touched by leg!" and Dr. BB, without missing a beat, called from the other room "do you want me to get the carbolic acid?" at which point I collapsed into a million giggles before cleaning up my leg and throwing the blanket in the washer.)
Chapter 34:
"No!" he said in a surprised voice.
"Yes, Johnny," she said quietly. (page 272)
Chapter 35:
He came and went without speaking. He stayed out late nights and came home sober and nobody knew where he spent the time. His hands were trembling badly. He could hardly hold the fork when he ate. And suddenly, he looked very old. (page 274)
So sad. He's only 34.
Chapter 36:
Johnny had been on the earth for thirty-four years. Less than a week ago, he had walked on those streets. And now the cup, the ring and two unironed waiter's aprons at home were the only concrete objects left to connote that a man had once lived. There were no other physical reminders of Johnny, as he had been buried in all the clothes he owned with his studs and his fourteen-carat gold collar button. (page 292)
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| I think this is what the shaving cup would have looked like? |
Chapter 37:
"From now on," she said, "I am your mother and your father." (page 299)
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
He [McShane] took off his hat while he spoke to her [Katie]. (page 263)
"And to show their appreciation, what did the boys do but pass the hat for you!" He extended an envelope. (page 263)
Katie got a new black hat and a three-foot widow's veil according to the custom of Brooklyn. (page 286)
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Questions for you:
1) In previous week's discussions, The Comedian's Children has talked about the occasions when Smith deviates from Francie's POV and switches to others. In the scene where Katie shoots the murderer, we switch from Katie's perspective about how she can swing by to check on Francie and get soap to Francie's perspective about getting home on time and seeing this guy back to Katie who sees this going down and runs back upstairs to get the gun, and then back to Francie. It was a rare bit of quick cuts in this book and it really made the scene feel like a propulsive action scene. Did you notice these perspective switches? What did they add to your reading experience?
2) There's a paragraph in Chapter 33 where the newspaper story about the shooting where the story ends up being that Mrs. O'Leary of Williamsburg had been shot by a prowler in the hallway of her home, which is so far removed from the truth that it's laughable. It seems plausible, though, right? But we use newspapers as primary sources frequently for archival research. Is anyone else very troubled by this passage?
3) Sissy! Was her handling of this baby situation ethical?
4) You don't have to answer this question if you don't want to or it makes you uncomfortable, but I'm going to ask it in case you'd like to share. Francie gets Johnny's shaving cup and Neely gets his ring. Do you have any artifacts from your loved ones that you'd like to share? I stand by my dining room table and cardinal picture as lovely pieces that make me think of my late MIL and the curio cabinet from my husband's grandmother.
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
I am listening to this book as an audiobook this time and I must have missed the first clue re the pregnancy, as I don't recall noticing until after Johnny died. I can't remember if I noticed it earlier when I read the book as a child, or if I even would have realized what the clues meant.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit to feeling a bit of relief when Johnny dies, as although Katie now has to be both mother and father, she does not have to also care for him. I guess that is a little mean, since he was trying to get clean so maybe things would have been better, but I still can't help but feel a bit relived anyway.
1. I like the perspective switches because it gives you that bit of insight into Katie's thoughts; we have been ragging on her for being harsh on Francie, but these peeks into her thoughts make her more human and give us a little more compassion for her (or not I guess, depending on her thoughts!)
2. I am guessing that they did not fact check the story, and yes, this disturbs me. Although I guess you could call it the old fashioned version of Twitter (or fill in the blank for the social media demon of choice).
3. Ethical? No. Comical? Yes. I mean, of course she was not pregnant! And why does she need to lie to poor Steve (or John or whatever his name is)? Although she is sweet with the kids, I don't actually like her much.
4. I have a few heirlooms from both of my grandmothers. I also have an end table, bought by my grandfather's mother at a thrift shop, but it has been passed down through the years and is special to me!
Wow! I can't believe you think Sissy's actions are funny. I think the gaslighting she's doing is reprehensible! There are so many Sissy defenders reading this! I never would have guessed.
DeleteI love hearing about other people's family heirlooms. It just makes me happy to think about how we're keeping the past alive.
Perhaps you misunderstand me; when I say comical, I don't mean Jerry Seinfeld, I mean laughable that she thought she could get away with it; it was so blatantly false! I don't really like her all that much actually.
DeleteI can see a bit of a comical nature to Sissy's actions. I mean, yes, totally reprehensible and gaslighting, but also? The fact that she's proclaiming to be pregnant when she has a totally flat belly and her husband being like "OMG WHATEVER" has a little bit of dark humor to it. IDK.
DeleteKyria, there is this small scene the night after Francie's run-in with the bad man (I think?!) where Katie whispers something to Johnny and then he stops drinking. It's such a small scene that it's easy to miss, especially listening to the book on audio!
OMG - Sissy! Sometimes it feels like she's the only woman in the book that isn't completely
Deletemiserable - and I think it's because she does stuff like this - so inconceivable (pun!) and brazen. Like she's determined to not let life beat her down.
@Stephany - I totally missed that! I don't know if I have ever noticed it, to be honest! I guess I never put his quitting drinking and them having a baby together in my mind! I do have a paper copy of the book and maybe after this I will re-read it again in hardcopy!
DeleteKATIE'S BRINGING THE A GAME!!!! Wow, did she ever redeem herself in my books in this section. I loved how she was the one who took action with the sex offender, and even thought to conceal the weapon. I loved that chapter, it was such a page turner.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favourite literary devices is differing POV in a book, and I really liked how this happened in this section. I also really loved how Katie got the cause of death to be pneumonia only, so her children wouldn't have that hanging over them. She did everything she could to protect her children, and I loved that. I guess that answers part of your question - revising the past. What this says to me is that we should always take information with a bit of a grain of salt, because errors can and do occur, whether accidentally (like the newspaper) or on purpose, like the death report.
Addiction is an awful thing, and it really showed it here, how Johnny was just so wrecked from years of abuse that even after quitting drinking, his voice and body were ruined. It was very sad when he got removed from the union, and it showed something that I think of often, the power of the mind. He obviously gave up the fight and that was that.
Sissy's desperation to have a healthy, living baby made my heart hurt. Sure it was a weird situation but there were so many questionable scenarios back then with unmarried mothers, that I was just happy she had a baby to love, finally.
I really loved that scene, how Katie insisted the kids get something each they could remember their father with. My Desiderata was my grandmother's, and is one of my most treasured things. I have a tiny crystal basket of flowers that was my other grandma's, she collected crystal figurines.
Oh, I didn't really make the connection between the made up story in the newspaper and the altered cause of death on Johnny's death certificate, but now that you point out the parallel, OF COURSE they're really the same thing, aren't they?
DeleteSo many Sissy defenders here! I'm afraid I just cannot get on board with what she's doing!
Katie did redeem herself a bit in this section of chapters - I loved the scene of her just throwing the gun into the washer because she was afraid it would start smoking. There were some slap-dash comedy to these chapters!
DeleteYes, Stephany! Everything was so chaotic in these chapters, but they are so many comedic moments. It was such a great read.
DeleteI agree. I liked that Katies priority was to have a children shielded from gossip and bad. feelings. But yes history is altert. And it sure happens more often then we want to believe. I and sure of it.
DeleteI have thoughts, Engie!!
ReplyDeleteThese chapters had so much action! My first clue Katie was pregnant (I forgot this plot twist from reading it years ago) was the exact quote you mention when she whispers it to Johnny.
While I don't condone lying, my heart was so happy for Sissy. Having children is such an intense experience and I simply can't imagine losing that many pregnancies. Carrying to term and delivering a dead child? It's horrific to imagine and she went through that over and over again. I'm really glad she has a healthy baby to call her own (though I'm sad for the girl who had to give her baby up, though in the circumstances of the story, I'm sure it was a relief).
It made me sad to think that Katie rarely kissed her kids but I'm sure her tough exterior was developed over much hardship and clearly under it all she loves her kids desperately and she SHOWED UP for Francie. I was really touched by all the injuries to Francie in the wake of the attack because they're tangible signs her parents actually cared deeply. Like Johnny took care of her after her injection site got infected and how he tried to take her boating - while things always go awry, they're trying their best. And it’s HILARIOUS that Dr. BB asked if you wanted the carbolic acid <3
Favourite quotes:
Chapter 33: "Katie felt that it cost nothing to be careful.” They were poor and because of their poverty, they were at higher risk of attack. Something they could get for free - playing things as safe as possible.
I was so happy when Francie sees the doctor and worries if he will make comments about her cleanliness and instead he says “That’s a brave girl.” And she thinks “Why, he’s on my side.”
“And it was nowhere on record that John Nolan had dried a drunkard.” Katie tried hard to leave as clear a legacy for her kids as possible. I also wonder if she thought the kids would forget he had been a drunk? Remember how Francie, over time, forgets details of the attack? Maybe Katie hoped the same would happen here and that her children would remember Johnny in a more positive light.
After Neely get mourning clothes. “It was his first long-pants suit, and pride, pleasure, and grief fought in Neely’s heart.” We rarely feel a singular emotion, do we?
“The flat was sickly with the combined scents of roses, lilies and carnations. Forever after, Francie hated those flowers, but it pleased Katie to know how much people had thought of Johnny.” This reminded me of how Katie forever hated the colour Hilda had gifted to Johnny when they were dating.
I loved the scene where Katie made the kids hot chocolate – with marshmallows! “Mama is really somebody,” thought Francie…”Mama never…” Suddenly the right word about mama came to Francie. “Mama never fumbles.” In reality, Katie stumbles a lot in her parenting, so I think this ties in to how we remember things differently when reflecting back. The newspaper story, Johnny dying of “pneumonia,” Francie forgetting the true account of the attack. Interesting interwoven themes of relative truth/selection memory here…
Do you remember when you thought your parents were perfect? I remember the first time I went mini golfing with my father as an adult and I realized that he just wasn't very good at it. I mean, my whole life he'd been The Man who was In Charge and suddenly I was beating him at mini golf and paying for dinner and it was really weird. I think when Francie has the realization that Katie does fumble, it's going to be hard for her.
DeleteMy heart was happy for Sissy, too! I wish there was a more ethical way for her to have adopted that baby, but I'm glad she finally got her wish. I can't imagine being in the right frame of mind after so many miscarriages/stillbirths.
DeleteI'm on board with Sissy doing what she did because of the overall good that came of it. An evil (yes, evil) father depriving his daughter and *grandchild* of food? NO thank you. I cannot get behind that. Yes, Sissy deceived her John. But did she really? I doubt it. And the child clearly is and will be loved. So, yes, while I would never do it, I think really good won out here.
DeleteThis set of chapters was bonkers. I thought women stoning a young mother and Johnny taking three children out in a boat he operated while drunk was wild, but this set of chapters was WILD.
ReplyDeleteWhat killed Johnny? Pneumonia and complications of alcoholism, clearly. (Even if Katie got the alcoholism part expunged from the record.) But was it the cumulative toll of drinking on his body? Was it trying to stop and his body being unable to cope? Was it hopelessness at losing his spot in the waiters' union? Maybe this is a morbid question, but it seemed somewhat sudden (even though previous chapters alluded to him being “sick” and other characters seemed to think he wouldn’t be around for very long). What was he doing out all night when he wasn’t drinking? Just trying to grit his teeth through staying sober? What a heartbreaking end. Thirty-four. Geez. I did love the glimpses of people in his life who cared for him, and by extension cared for Katie and her kids, though. In some previous chapters, it felt like Francie was the only one who saw Johnny through rose-colored glasses, while he was more of a joke to others. So it was really nice to learn that he really had made a positive impact on other people.
And then, on the other hand, there’s Sissy, getting a baby by any means. My heart aches for her, after so many losses. Whomst among us wouldn't also go off the deep end just a little after that? But this whole section is BONKERS. Her family just accepted this brand new baby without question???? Also, thank goodness for Sissy because that poor pregnant girl! Her father was trying to starve her and her unborn baby?!?! Why is having a baby outside of marriage such a horrific sin – worse even than STARVING A PERSON or STONING THEM IN THE STREET??!?!?!
My heart sank for Katie, knowing that she was pregnant. How is she going to get by? And now without a second (if very unsteady) source of support and income?
1. Engie – you and your husband joking about getting the carbolic acid made me chuckle. The way Katie and Johnny “handle” Francie’s attack made me feel so tenderly toward everyone involved (except the rapist, obviously). Katie and Johnny really showed up for Francie when it counted. What an ordeal! I’m so glad that the doctor who attended to Francie was kind and gentle.
2. This passage about the newspaper getting the story of the attack all wrong was disturbing and perplexing to me. How did the story change so drastically from the truth? And why wasn’t it reported accurately? The ramifications are definitely troubling. This seems to echo some things that have happened in previous chapters -- Katie making Francie change "drunk" to "sick" in her diary. Katie getting the doctor to remove any mention of alcoholism from Johnny's cause of death. Francie telling the school she lived in the area. Sissy claiming the baby as her own. Francie's teacher forcing her to write stories about pretty things rather than about real life. Truth/fact are malleable things in the world of the book (and in the world we live in), and that's both liberating and sobering.
3. The whole thing with Sissy seemed so outlandish. But if we are talking ethical, then I would say yes with regard to the baby and the baby’s family of origin, and no with regard to her lying to her husband about where the baby came from.
4. My family heirlooms are limited to a lot of Spode dishes from my father’s mother. I’m sure my own mother has some special things from her family that she will pass on someday. My mother-in-law has shared several things from her family with me, though – a curio cabinet, a diamond pendant, and a few other items.
Yes! These 50 pages were BONKERS. I could not believe what I was reading. One thing after another. CRAZY.
DeleteOh, the drunk/sick thing I'll add to the list of written artifacts from the past that aren't true, like the newspaper story and Johnny's death certificate. It's an interesting theme that I definitely didn't notice when I was reading it as a younger person and I'm interested to see if there are further items we can add to the list as we go along.
I read this book just 5 years ago and still gasped when I came to the chapter about Jonny dying! Why didn't I remember this happening?! Francie went through so much in those few weeks: the attack, her father dying, etc.
DeleteI also feel so much for Sissy, and I don't know who would be in their right frame of mind after so much loss. At least she gave this baby a better life?
Suzanne, THIS: What was he doing out all night when he wasn’t drinking? Just trying to grit his teeth through staying sober? I thought I was the only one with these questions. I feel better now. I was feeling rather dense.
DeleteAnne, my husband and I just had quite a long conversation about what Johnny was doing. I think this is ambiguous because Francie would have been clueless, but there are two main thoughts in our house.
Delete1. When Johnny heard from Katie that she was pregnant again, he decided he needed to get his act together. He got sober, but without the alcohol to fuel him, he lost his joie de vivre, couldn't get work, and was just a sad sack. He spent those nights out trying to find work, but no one wants to hire a sad sack to provide entertainment or service. This is a charitable reading of Johnny.
2. When Johnny heard from Katie that she was pregnant again, he just gave up. He stopped doing all the things that brought him joy (drinking, singing) and just waited to die. During the night hours, he was probably just wandering about feeling sorry for himself. This is a less charitable reading of Johnny.
I'd be curious to know which of these theories make sense for other people and if you have theories of your own.
Anne, Suzanne, NGS--You'd think Johnny wouldn't want to be out and about with all the temptation of booze and his drinking buddies. Why not stay at home and quit there? I remember him going cold turkey at home before, and Sissy bailed him out with the flask of booze. It was tough. He probably didn't want his family to see him like that again, weak, trembling with DTs and sick. He likely did it out on the streets, by himself, and that's how he got pneumonia.
DeleteOooh, Engie and Nance, I think you hit the nail on the head. I can see Johnny -- who, I think, is at his heart a good person who loves his family -- wanting so desperately to get well and to take care of his wife and kids that he would just go out and try to get through the alcohol withdrawal on his own. I bet he was trying to find work, too. And I also think he lost his will to live. All of the above. Breaks my heart.
DeleteI read Johnny's sobering up as #1, where once he wasn't drunk he wasn't FUN, he wasn't HAPPY. So he lost the charm that made his character because he was trying to be someone he, frankly, wasn't.
DeleteOkay, okay, you were right- Katie is awesome. First of all, when she shoots the man attacking Francie- obviously she's a hero. And for all my complaints about her not caring enough about Francie, she did care. She came home in the middle of the day to make sure Francie got home okay, and ended up saving her. I agree that in spite of the serious subject matter, this chapter did have some comic elements, including Francie insisting she wanted her leg cut off.
ReplyDeleteThen, when Johnny died, I had an epiphany. I KNOW Katie. My maternal grandparents were of German descent, and they didn't talk about feelings, or show affection, or cry in front of other people- and my mom was the same way, so that's the way we were brought up. It wasn't quite to the extreme of Katie's family (like I would certainly hope my mom wouldn't have sent my sister and me out to cry in the gutter if our father had died) but I totally got the scene where Katie did that, and then treated them to hot chocolate. I've been much too harsh on Katie!
Sissy is such a kind person, and she treated the pregnant girl and her family so well, that I can't criticize her. I mean, what would have happened to them if Sissy hadn't come along? About her husband- I believe she did ask him about adopting a baby and he said no. So... yes, she's lying to him, but it probably feels to her like she doesn't have any other choice.
These chapters were definitely action-packed and riveting!
I think Katie cares A LOT and that's her problem. Her love language is acts of service, not words of affirmation. When Katie is called to stand up for Francie, she does.
DeleteI can't believe all you Sissy defenders! How would you feel if you were her husband? And all the attending gaslighting going on for not just her husband, but the biological mother's father! Wow! I guess I'm just not as understanding about Sissy as everyone else is.
I've been very harsh on Katie, too, and I think you're right that we're likely looking at her from an entirely different lens. But if we realize she's someone who doesn't show emotions and has to be strong and tough because that's how she survived... it makes a lot more sense. I still think she has a lot of flaws, but don't we all?!
DeleteNGS--But where are her Acts Of Service when it's time to do some basic mothering? Like take the kids to get vaccinated or go get groceries? That's a bit of picking and choosing. And she used plenty of sweet words for Neeley's Christmas gift, but nothing for Francie's thoughtful and handmade gifts. I get that Katie has a lot on her shoulders; I truly do. But it's never okay to brush aside a good kid simply because she's a good kid who doesn't seem needy.
DeleteYou're 100% right, Nance, I'm totally cherry picking. I just feel like Katie comes through when it really matters. Sure, she's very thoughtless at times (the Christmas present, for example), but I just feel like she gets criticized very harshly and I'm not sure she deserves all that criticism! Obviously she's flawed, as Stephany wrote above, but she's also really loving and even sometimes thoughtful about her parenting decisions.
DeleteThese chapters did a nice job of exposing the Other Sides of characters. They showed what each of them were really made of when faced with extreme situations.
ReplyDeleteKatie: (The whisper shared between her and Johnny tipped me off to the new baby on the way.) Did she plead with him to get off the booze? Did she give him an ultimatum? I can't imagine her feelings when she found out. In true Katie fashion, she worked hard and kept her pregnancy private. She really did show her sense of maternal protectiveness when the murderer was at large, and she barely hesitated when confronted with him in the flesh, holding her daughter. Katie's reactions at that point were more visceral than practical, which is unusual for her. It gave a small glimpse into her unbound for a change. Later, when she is rearranging the bedroom assignments, she's careful to say that she's "sharing Francie's bedroom." She's starting to think more about her daughter's feelings. Maybe she just didn't have the capacity to, before, when she was so burdened with Johnny and the overarching concerns of running a household on so little money and the onus of his poor reputation dragging them down.
Johnny: Once Johnny hears of a new baby, reality starts to sink in (finally!). He can't just pretend life is a song anymore, and the money he's been drinking away is even more in need for his growing family. He quits drinking, and it's terrible for him in every way. It's admirable that he attempts a turnaround, but it's too late. He just doesn't have the physical strength now. He waited too long. He literally loses everything, and it's ironic that the only ones at the funeral who really cry for him are Hildy and his mother, the two women who never saw him for what he truly was.
Sissy: She finally gets her baby, and even though she lies to her current husband, he's a willing fool. No matter what the situation is, Sissy meets it with generosity and kindness. She has buried ten babies, but it has not turned her mean or bitter. What a contrast between her and the women who stoned Joanna! She saved lives by adopting the baby (and that family)!
Neeley--We don't get to know much about him in this book, but we do see that he's starting to struggle with emotions. That wasn't the case early on when he was happy to follow the herd of boys in the neighborhood, taunting and fighting other poor kids. Now, he is more concerned with God's judgment and wrath as well as how he should feel about getting a grownup suit at the expense of his father's death.
Francie--This poor girl has been through it. And now she's lost her father, been held captive by a sex offender and murderer, seen a man shot, and attended her father's funeral. She's not only found more esteem for her mother, but she's also decided she's got no use for God. God is a punisher, and Francie has had enough of punishment. Is it any wonder? (I think I was about Francie's age when I started to have no use for religion, either [I was also a Roman Catholic]. I got sick of the guilt and punishment aspect, too, and all the misogyny.)...
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I loved this comment and your breakdown of the characters! I don't think Katie does nag him or give him an ultimatum or anything. I think she told him, he realized he needed to get his act together, he got sober, but when he was sober, he wasn't as good at being his charming, entertaining self, so he lost work. I think if they'd had a little bit more of a support system, he might have been able to pull himself together, but I that system just wasn't there.
DeleteSomeone earlier asked what he was doing with his time when he was sober and I think he was looking for work, but getting turned down. Or am I being too much of an optimist on that?
Nance, thank you for calling out the Francie not believing in god anymore piece of this chapter. That really hit me, too - this is someone who was raised "in the church", for whom church and the Bible and all of the trappings of religion have played a primary role. I wonder if the book will come back to this?? Will she stay a non-believer?
DeleteI'm sorry my comment is so long! I neglected to answer your questions.
ReplyDelete1. I hardly noticed the perspective switch because the narration became so taut. It was really well done. So much suspense!
2. I found the inept reporting almost comical. I'm sure it happened a lot; it still happens now. There was a story in the Cleveland Plain Dealer recently about that, how one reporter completely mischaracterized an event years ago, and how that one perspective became accepted. The editor debunked it. It happened with Edgar Allan Poe's biography for ages, thanks to Rufus Griswold's horrid obituary; Griswold was a detractor of Poe's and used the opportunity to smear him.
3. Sissy unethical? Hmmm. That's a pretty serious word for someone like Sissy. And her husband is a grown man who was awfully easily led. All the obvious signs were there to show everyone that this baby could not have been Sissy's. Seems like a victimless crime. (And even Crime is too stringent a word.)
4. I have a few things from my grandmother, the largest being her mahogany dining room set. I have my grandfather's watch chain. I have a couple of my father's sweaters. This might make you smile--I also have his golf hat.
Wow! It is most definitely NOT a victimless crime. Her husband said he didn't want to adopt and there's Sissy forcing him to adopt and not letting him know. I am very uncomfortable with it and am trying to imagine how it would go if a man were doing that to a woman!
DeleteHis golf HAT!!! That is GOLD!!
Nance, I also found the inept reporting comical. It was just like a comedy of errors, where each time they tried to correct the mistake they made a new one and it all piled on top of itself.
DeleteThe carbolic comment by your husband! Lolololol!! I am so dense so did not pick up on the fact that Katie was pregnant. I had to read the sentence that made it clear multiple times. I guess I had the impression that she was so done w/ Johnny that they weren't having sex?
ReplyDelete1. I've been doing a close read of this book but have to admit I did not notice the change in POV!
2. Wow, the report was so inept! It is kind of comical. But also sad since people assume everything they read is the truth.
3. Hmm. I think I'd lean towards saying it wasn't unethical. I don't know how her husband would have been tricked but maybe everyone was so happy for her to have a baby that they just went along with it.
4. Honestly? Not a thing. Is that bad? I am not a sentimental person at all, though. I did ask my grandparents if I could have their house when they died when I was a child, though! They thought it was hilarious, though. (The house went to their daughters who sold it.) I was probably like 8 when I made that inquiry. I hear of so much conflict over who gets what when people die. It makes me so sad. So I will for sure not be contributing to any sort of drama in my family when that time comes. I am not certain others in my family will take my approach, though!
Wow! No family heirlooms! My house is filled with cast offs from our families. Lol! I guess you're not in as precarious a financial situation as we have historically been!!!
DeleteI don't have family heirlooms, either! I don't know if I understand your comment, Engie - it's BECAUSE my family was poor that we don't have any heirlooms. There was no money for any of that growing up! Heirlooms felt like something for rich people, haha.
DeleteI don't have anything, either, and it's for the same reason that Stephany cites. My family didn't have really anything until my parents' generation. All they really had were some not-very-valuable pieces of jewelry (3 rings, I think?) that went to the nephews in my generation. I don't have anything from my grandparents.
DeleteI misread the question and was answering about things I would want! Which is nothing really. I was the 4th child so by the time I went out in the world on my own, there wasn't much to hand off! My grandparents sold their house in probably 2010 and by then I'd been living on my own for 7 years so I had what I needed and didn't have room or the desire to take on anything. I did have my parents old mattress for awhile but got rid of that around 2008 I think? My parents never really upgraded their belongings so didn't have anything to pass along to us. The tables and cabinets they have now are things they bought throughout their marriage... I was definitely not in an awesome financial situation for the first 10 years of my career but I pieced together furniture from Ikea and such... I think my siblings probably got a lot of kitchen stuff from my mom when she would upgrade things. The only thing I have is her old hand mixer!
DeleteOh, this is all fascinating. My side of the family definitely didn't have much and that's what makes everything I do have from them so special. I have a high chair that my mother's grandfather built and some mice chess pieces my parents purchased early in their marriage. But most of it is from my husband's family and it's because they did have more resources. Interesting point!
DeleteThis makes me think about what my sons would want that we have! Aside from the lakehouse, I'd say only a few sentimental things, for sure. We don't have antiques or valuables. I can't imagine there'd be anything they'd want.
DeleteThis week was action packed!
ReplyDelete1. Nope! Once I pick up the book I get so transfixed that I never think about the mechanics. I feel like Smith has a hundred tricks like this in her writer’s tool case that keep us locked in to the pages.
2. I get the feeling that she’s reporting a real situation where what was reported in the newspaper was nowhere near the actual event. That’s a great point that we use newspapers for research.
3. Sissy is Queen! Everything that she does is 100% right. While there is so much of this book that I had forgotten, I do remember how her story turns out and I can’t wait until we get there.
4. I have quite a few personal effects from my dad’s side of the family, and they mean a lot to me. The other day we were trying to read something microscopic and I reached into my great great grandfather’s desk and pulled out a magnifier from someone else in the family and it was the perfect tool for the job.
Your magnifier story reminds me that my husband has a little green toolkit that his maternal grandfather gave him and when he has small home repairs to do, he pulls it out. The tools still work for what they were designed to do!
DeleteSissy IS Queen. I love her.
DeleteI really liked these chapters; a whole lot happened!!
ReplyDeleteI did think that Katie was pregnant after she whispered something to Johnny. I'm assuming that he died from detoxing? Like he wasn't going to drink so he could be a good husband an father this time? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was in my head.
There are times that I don't love Smith's writing style, then she will pull me in with something on the next page. She's a different type of writer.
I too had a laugh at your leg touching the puke and your husbands quick rebuttal.
I can't believe Sissy! She's got a lot of nerve...but it looks like she made it work out in her favor with the baby.
I was so mad at the Funeral Director (Mortician?) who took advantage of Katie. The fact that she knew it was happening and she didn't have the energy to fight it; this made me both angry and sad.
I have SO many things from my Mom, Dad, Brother, Grandmother and Uncle; cherished items.
I think Johnny probably did have pneumonia, right? I mean, his immune system was probably weakened because he was in withdrawal, but I'm going to show my ignorance here and say that I don't know how long withdrawal symptoms take to clear up, so this seems like it was quite some time after he stopped drinking. Hm.
DeleteJohnny's time between when Katie tells him she's pregnant and when he dies is just so mysterious. I think WHY it's mysterious is interesting to ponder. If we think it's because Francie wouldn't know or understand what was happening, that's one explanation. But maybe the other explanation is that writing about Johnny's behavior/actions just weren't interesting to the author?
Pretty dang sure that he had pneumonia - winter, alcoholic (and not drinking only for a short while), smoker, not eating, not sleeping. All of that adds up and then throw in some nasty winter bug and... you've got pneumonia. He didn't have the physical strength or reserves to fight it off. And honestly? He may not have wanted to. At that point, he may just have given up, figuring that the family was better off without him, anyway. Sigh.
DeleteI also do not always love the writing style, but I do feel like Smith knew what she wanted to accomplish and that's more important. I definitely understand her reasoning behind certain narrative decisions.
DeleteWhat a crazy section! I read this book 5 years ago for the first time and honestly did not remember that Johnny died. So young! So tragic! I was hoping we were going to find out what Katie whispered to him that caused him to stop drinking - I had a feeling she was pregnant and wasn't thrilled to find out she is. Eeks. More tough times ahead for her.
ReplyDelete1) I love the perspective switches. It really makes the action so propulsive! I think it makes for clever storytelling.
2) Gotta be honest, do not remember this. Oops. I thought I was doing a close reading but apparently not!
3) I have so many mixed feelings about this story! I don't want to judge Sissy too harshly because I do not think she's in the right frame of mind to think logically after losing so many babies again and again and again. Mental health was not a *thing* in this time, but she must have been going through it. I think she was ethical with the family - obviously, the daughter was being abused by her father (through not giving her proper sustenance) and Sissy was their savior in that way. And I think they were happy to give Sissy this baby. (I think?! Or am I projecting?) But how she handled it with her husband and family was not ethical.
4) I have my great-grandma's and my grandma's Bible, and that's about as heirloom-y as we get, lol. No furniture like you have! That just isn't a thing in my family.
I do feel badly for Sissy, but I just find her whole storyline reprehensible and I'm not sure why I'm having such a strong reaction to it, but I definitely think I need to interrogate my feelings on this because I'm in the minority!
DeleteI have mixed feelings about Sissy, too. In lots of ways, she stands up for Francie and is there for her sister in ways that no one else does/is. And she is clearly a woman with a lot of love to give, and a desperate desire to have a child -- so all that together makes me feel very tender toward her. Plus, the author's depiction of her is almost caricaturistic -- she's SUCH a tragicomic figure, with so much bathos and pathos mixed in. HOWEVER. I don't always like her methods! There's a lot of playing with truth vs. fiction/lying in this book, and Sissy features frequently on the fiction/lying side of the equation, apparently without any compunctions! And I feel like forcing a child upon your spouse -- when he is clearly against it -- is wrong. Wait. DO I feel that way? Maybe I feel that way about this specific instance, but not universally. Anyway.
DeleteI was not at all prepared for Johnny to die. And how it was just BAM laid out in the first sentence of chapter 36. It's such a interesting way, technically, of laying out that chapter. I mean Smith could have started the chapter with Johnny going missing, then McShane telling Katie he was in the hospital, etc., etc... But somehow the tension and momentum of Johnny's death is greater when you start with the shocking certainty that he is dead rather than with any kind of meandering foreboding and eventual reveal.
ReplyDeleteAnd OMG the smarmy undertaker! I wanted so bad for Katie to send him on his way, but she was so exhausted and unfamiliar with how to deal with the process of burying someone. This line:
"Katie thanked him. he wasn't fooling her but she made no protest. She knew that was the way things were done. He was only working at his trade."
For Katie, who knew how to feed the family with pennies by not letting butchers, bakers, and grocers take advantage of her, seeing her get taken by the undertaker... made me so mad.
Oh also this line about that tin can bank, after she pries it up to pay the undertaker:
"We won't need it any more. You see, we own a bit of land now." I feel like she's kind of just given up a little bit on those ambitions.
1) I didn't really register the shifting POVs, but it did give that passage a certain cinematic quality, I thought.
2) What the what? Don't they have fact checkers? Also - kind of hilarious because I'm sure Katie would *not* want the whole world knowing that she shot someone, "prowling sex fiend" or not. (Also - that turn of phrase struck me as very modern, but maybe it isn't...? I wonder if it was considered very strong language back then.)
3) I thought the whole Sissy baby chapter was kind of awesome and ridiculous...
Like when she says, "Didn't the Virgin Mary herself get a baby without a man? If she could do it, I'm sure I could do it easier, being's I'm married and have a man."
Or the baby being "in the incubator at Coney Island."
Or how about when John comments on how big the baby is, and she says, "You're a mighty big man yourself, Lover."
I feel like ethical is beside the point here - both as a literary pitstop for Smith, and for Sissy as a character.
4) I have some items of clothing from my grandmother, and some linens. Also a twenty-five year old food processor that I think was hers as well. My Husband's parents passed away about five or six years ago, and we have several pieces of their furniture. When my sister-in-law came to visit, she said to my Husband, "I feel like your house is a shrine to mom and dad." I thought it was a bizarre comment, but I could also see her point.
Diane, Thanks for bringing up how suddenly Johnny dies! We'd seem him in withdrawal before (when Sissy brought the whisky in her bra), so I guess I thought he'd just get through this. (Although, I have read this before and KNEW he was going to die - it was just so sudden!). I guess I thought it read like that because it would have appeared to be sudden to Francie and then she would have had to go back in her memory and piece together how it could have happened.
DeleteOh, Diane! Your quote samples set off a little flash for me. There's so much parallelism between the Katie/undertaker situation and the Sissy/John situation. Katie tiredly submits to the undertaker's fraud even though "he wasn't fooling her but she made no protest. She knew that was the way things were done. He was only working at his trade."
DeleteIsn't this pretty much the situation with Sissy and her husband regarding the baby? He knows in his heart that there's no possible way Sissy was pregnant or delivered a baby. He saw a flat stomach all along. She never begs him to take her to her baby at Coney Island. The baby doesn't look like a premature baby. Finally, John tiredly submits to Sissy's fraud. She wasn't fooling him but he made no protest. He knew that was the way things were done. She was only working at her trade.
oh what a light bulb, Nance! Only this time, it's the man who's beaten down and taken advantage of!
DeleteOK, I'm Going There. No one (that I can tell) has mentioned the Sex Talk that Katie has with Francie and Neely at the beginning of Chapter 33. Did anyone else's parents try the "cabbage patch" explanation? My mom was a labor and delivery nurse and taught Lamaze. Let's just say that there was plenty of evidence of where babies came from in our house. I was pretty impressed that Katie stepped up, although the Catholicization of the process was a bit humorous.
ReplyDeleteI looked up the Sullivan Act too, as it sounded familiar, and then remembered that it was the statute overturned (sigh) by the Supreme Court last year. Also, Burt. Does ANYONE trust ANYONE in this book? This is a theme that I keep seeing repeated - there are those who cannot be trusted, for one reason or another, and then there are those one can trust implicitly. I get that with Francie and Neely. They are so close, so intertwined with each other, that I think - I hope - they trust each other. But with everyone else, it seems like it's always DIStrust? Am I overthinking this?
As horrific as the assault scene was, I appreciated the bits of humor scattered throughout (Katie forgetting that she'd gotten the gun from under the pillow to, you know, *shoot the murderer*; parentitis, etc.). I also, like Elisabeth, loved this doc's attitude towards Francie, and how she recognized that. That quote made me smile, too.
Oh, Sissy. Yes, she lied. But she did, in my opinion, come out on balance for the good of the universe. The baby was healthier than it would have been had she not intervened, as was Lucia. Overall, I think the positives here outweigh the negatives. (This is weird for me, because I cannot lie. I just.. can't. I tell the truth no matter what, and the idea of even FIBBING gets me worked up. Yet, I am okay with it in Sissy? Hm...) Also, Engie, re: the gaslighting. Is it really gaslighting if they know she's gaslighting them? Doesn't that obviate it a bit? I mean, really - they know she's "getting" a baby, not "having" a baby. The awareness on all sides is part of what, I think, makes me accept this (even as I know I would not do it). I'm curious - what did Dr. BB think about this?
I am dumber than a rock. Seriously. For YEARS I could not figure out what Katie whispered to Johnny. I finally got it the third time (yes, third) I read it this go-round. Seriously. Dumber than a rock. I knew she was pregnant, obviously, but I could not figure out why Johnny left. And why did he leave? Was it to protect the family? Was it to try to get sober? Was it to face the fact that he was an unemployed, soon to be father of three who could not support his family? Why?
I feel like Chapter 35 is where Francie and Neely suddenly grow up. They start warm and happy, eating their oatmeal and banana (and condensed milk - again!) dinner, Katie playing the piano, until Johnny comes home with the news of being thrown out of the union. And at the end of the chapter, it really hit me when Neely said, "Do you want to talk about olden times?" "No," said Francie. *sob*
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DeleteMe and my long comments...
DeleteOh, Johnny. Such a sad end. In a doorway. Alone. And only 34 - so much younger than I am now. I do love the change in perspective. In this chapter, when Katie goes to the hospital, it really works for me. We don't lose the central character, Francie, but we get to see how her life is developing due to the actions of those around her (Sissy, Katie, etc.). Following Katie to the hospital gave us, as readers, more knowledge than we would have had just from Francie's perspective, and it also gave me insight into the kind of person, and mom, Katie was.
The part where Francie says she does not believe in god anymore really, really got me. As I said in my reply to Nance, this is someone who was raised "in the church", for whom church and the Bible and all of the trappings of religion have played a primary role. I wonder if the book will come back to this?? Will she stay a non-believer?
I loved the tiny section on the neighbors, and how they clean the flat and feed the Nolans. Too bad the food won't last forever, nor the coal, but it is such a lovely gesture. I love how they step up - even the Tyndale sisters! - when needed.
Questions:
I touched on 1, above, and 3.
2. I am disturbed by the newspaper story being changed. I know this happens - it's a game of whisper down the lane, just played out in the media. And yet, it does bother me. I know we have a lot of people yelling "fake news" (sigh) and this would just feed into that.
4. I don't have anything from my family members. I might get some things from my parents, but no heirlooms here. We didn't have any, to be honest.
1.I liked the perspective changes as a literary device, but this whole scene is so strange and just doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the book. It is a part of the book I forgot about, in fact, and when I encountered it, I was struck by how odd it seemed.
Delete2. Interesting– I didn’t think about this passage in terms of archival research, but I did read TONS of newspaper accounts of women dying from abortions and refusing to name their providers and never thought about the merits of the reporting.
3. Reading through today’s lens, YES, of course. But as a side character in a book? I am still charmed by Sissy.
4. I have a hope chest from my dad’s parents that we use to hold hats in the laundry room and a quilt mt grandma bought for her “back bedroom” that we use as a picnic blanket, handmade quilts and sweaters, plus cookie jars, from my other grandma, and a bag of ties that were my dad’s that I still smell sometimes when I miss him. I try really hard not to get attached to family things because my dad and his brother fell out over stuff like this when their parents died and never repaired their relationship.
Anne--The "olden days" scene pained me, too. It's heartbreaking when you can't look back at those days and see them through the same happy filter as you once could. It's far worse than finding out that there's no Santa Claus.
DeleteNo cabbage patch or stork explanation in my house because there was never The Talk (about anything like that) in my house. Which is strange because we sure talked about everything else like crazy.
You're so right about the theme of mistrust in the book. Everyone expects to be cheated; it's just a way of life. They expect it at the merchants and they expect it from one another. What a wearying way of life. It must be how conspiracy theorists feel.
Sarah--I'm sorry about your dad and uncle's relationship. I understand this happens a great deal in families when it comes time to settle estates and belongings. What a shame. I tried to get my grandfather's tie collection when he died, but they were donated to charity. Most of them were made for him by my grandmother, so I felt the loss very keenly. Still, I was glad that they would eventually go to someone to be worn.
Oh Anne, that olden days comment. YES. Such a heartbreaking moment. Same with Francie's renouncement of God. So much loss in this chapter.
DeleteI'm afraid that these chapters were too much for me, and I am no longer able to stick with the program. I had to read ahead. I am LOVING this book, and as I said in my comment on last week's reading, I felt sure I had read it before, but now I am not at all sure.
ReplyDeleteI was so angry at Katie at the beginning of the book, and she still sometimes pisses me off with her favoritism of Neely, but I LOVE HER for saving Francie! Thank god Johnny got a gun, and thank god she thought to use it! I loved the panic in that chapter, it was so real. How poor Francie just froze, like every nightmare, right? How Katie had to whack her with the gun and drag her to get her away from there. How she threw the gun in the wash and couldn't remember where it had gone. So real and kinda funny too.
Oh Johnny, so sad. He did say at one point he was killing himself with his drinking, so he was aware of it. I think it was the detoxing plus all of the damage he had done to himself over the years, his body couldn't cope. Could he have survived if he hadn't been out late like that in the cold winter air? Maybe. So sad.
I know you are team NOT Sissy, that the fact that she lied to her John (Steve) about the pregnancy is pretty much unforgivable. I think about the options, though. She could have let that cruel man starve his daughter and grandchild to death. She could have saved them somehow and turned the baby over to the authorities. She could have told Steve the truth and asked him to raise another man's child (which he had said he refused to do.) She could have taken the baby and left Steve. If she hadn't taken the baby, I don't know why Steve would have come out any different than any other of her John's, she would have left him too. He's not a complete idiot, he knows it's not his baby, or hers. He is willing to go along with it to save face and keep her. So while I would not do what she did, I don't blame her for it. I think given the circumstances, she did the right thing.
At first I thought you were going to say that this section made you stop reading the book and I was astounded! LOL. I'm glad it's just that it propelled you ahead. It's been very hard to stop reading at the designated times, that's for sure!
DeleteI am going to have to reevaluate my Sissy feelings because everyone's making persuasive arguments that Steve KNEW that Sissy was lying and that the child is in a better home with Sissy and Steve that would be otherwise, but I just keep thinking about how I would feel if someone brought home a baby and said it was mine and sort of kept saying it was mine even if I knew it wasn't. It would make me (literally) insane, I think.
This weeks reading was so intense. I agree a lot has happened in the past. Chapters. I really had to force myself not to read on and move ahead.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading those chapters I also read on Betty Smith a bit. I guessed that ATGIB was autobiographical. Apparently the sexual assault was also something she seemed to have experienced. I guess it. Was not. Something you would ever openly discuss and truly process. How sad. How scary. How outrages.
1) It looks like I am a very inattentive reader when it comes to style and mechanics in writing. I didn conciouslysee those switches. I guess. It felt a bit more dynamic but that was allIpicked up.I am wondering: do you actually look out for those things? Do you actively analyze?
2) I stumbled across that too. It only confirms that the newspaper will only write part of the truth and it always depends what angle is worked. And also it’s a bit like everyone copying. From everyone and then you get a whole new story in the end. And now imagine that with social media. It really is scary. The main issue we are not aware or keep forgetting.
3) Not sure it was ethical. Definityl not regarding her John. But she did pay? (?) for having the baby. Or at least offered a solution? I don’t know I guess for her it was totally plausible.
4) Oh I love this question. I do have a cup from my late grandma – one she served. Me hot chocolate in whenI visited. Also a bit of jewelry which I don’t really wear as it is gold and I never wear gold. From my other set of grandparents I have some old cameras (1920’s) and binocular. Also many recipe books with granny’s adaptations and adjustments as well as some jewelry. From my late father-in-law I have a copy of Dracula. He read a tone and had so many books. I took one classic to keep.
Oh, Tobia! I'm so glad you asked if I actively analyze when I'm reading. My process for creating these posts is really obnoxious, but you asked, so I'm going to lay it all out here. I first read the week's chapters, just taking notes like I would if I were normally reading - looking for good quotes/words I don't know/mentions of the word hat, etc., but mostly just enjoying the read. Then I read through it again looking for things I want to talk about for book club - questions I want to ask, in particular - but I also try to think about things that have been brought up in our discussions in past weeks, including themes other people have pointed out or writing tics (like the change in perspective). I will then sometimes read it a third time just to make sure I didn't miss anything major.
DeleteI LOVE that you have recipes from your granny! I just love having examples of handwriting from my relatives.
Coming oh-so-late to the party!
ReplyDelete1) I love analyzing the POV shifts. The back and forth from Francie to Katie and back really created a tense scene. What I'm secretly hoping for the end of the book is that we switch back to it being all Francie's POV by the end as she realizes her own voice and that this IS her story, where she is the main character and however she sees it is what's important.
2) I just found the newspaper thing to be truth in television, in a way. I said in a reply I felt it was like a comedy of errors where the more they tried to fix the mistake the worse it got.
3) Sissy! Of course it was wrong. It was SO wrong. But if an amazing character gaslighting her John of the week is wrong I don't wanna be right.
To be more serious, though, that girl could have died. Sissy saved a young girl's life.
4) I was given first choice from my grandmother's curio cabinet when I was four. This caused a major uproar as I had only met her about eight times and my aunts/uncles didn't think it was fair that their older children who were much closer to the woman didn't get first pick. I chose two porcelain figurines of women with, like, parasols. That's IT. Scandalous!
FYI, my other three grandparents died before I was born.
On a much sadder note, I have a model of the Enterprise-D from Star Trek from my brother, who built models of every ship from the series. I do not have anything of my father's yet, but what I do have is a strawberry shortcake roll he gave me the week before he died, because he gave me treats like that whenever he could, and it has been in the same spot it was in on January 24, 2022.
I honestly don't remember so many digressions from Francie's POV when I read it before. Francie is, obviously, the main character, but she's not the ONLY character with internal thoughts. I think that's interesting, especially in light of the fact that this was originally Smith's autobiography.
DeleteSissy...is not my favorite character. I'm so shocked by all the defense of Sissy.
Four-year-old you picking porcelain dolls with parasols. Awww. That's so adorable.