Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 11-18. Let's dive in!
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Thanks again to everyone who sent in a photo of their book!
Jenny at Runners Fly
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Synopsis: Katie's sister Sissy helps Johnny detox after a bout of alcohol poisoning, but the Nolans have to move because of Johnny's drunken idiocy. Francie's lonely, but there's some solace for her in the music of the neighborhood, including a traveling band and an organ grinder with a monkey. Eventually Katie and Johnny disavow Sissy after a couple of incidents where Sissy is an idiot and the Nolans have to move again. The new place has a terrifying sounding airshaft, but it also comes with a piano, so Katie, Neely, and Francie all learn to play with lessons from Miss Tynmore. Francie and Neely have to get vaccinations to go to school and Francie's injection site gets infected and Johnny is able to clean it. Look at Johnny being a decent father for once in his life. (That previous sentence was editorial, rather than a simple recitation of plot.)
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Things I looked up:
Parlor suite (page 104) - Do you think this means furniture for a parlor? It just seems like the Nolans have very little furniture, so what do you think the "green plush parlor suite" consists of?
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 12: While Katie was putting up lace curtains, Mary Rommely came over and sprinkled the rooms with holy water to drive out any devils that might be lurking in the corners. Who knows? Protestants might have been living there. A Catholic might have died in the rooms without the absolution of the church. The holy water would purify the home again so that God might come in if He chose. (page 105)
I don't know why the line about a Protestant living there made me laugh. Interesting delve into the religious divide of the neighborhood.
Chapter 13: The fall came again, winter, spring, and summer. Francie and Neely kept getting bigger, Katie kept working harder and Johnny worked a little less and drank a little more with each season. (page 109)
Johnny's just no good. I liked how this passage describes time passing in terms of the children growing up. Clever writing, this.
Chapter 14: While Katie was arguing with the movers, Johnny took Francie up on the roof. She saw a whole new world. Not far away was the lovely span of the Williamsburg Bridge. Across the East River, like a fairy city made of silver cardboard, the skyscrapers loomed cleanly. There was the Brooklyn Bridge further away like an echo of the nearer bridge. (page 122)
Katie's doing work and Johnny's on the roof. Shocker. I like Smith's use of simile here. The rest of the city is so mysterious to Francie.
Chapter 15: The pole stood against a brick wall which was the windowless side of the neighborhood school. Francie found that no two bricks were alike when she looked real close. It was a soothing rhythm the way they were put together with crumbly thin lines of white mortar. They glowed when the sun shone on them. They smelled warm and porous when Francie pressed her cheek against them. They were the first to receive the rain and they gave off a wet clay odor that was like the smell of life itself. In the winter, when the first snow was too delicate to last on the sidewalks, it clung to the rough surface of the brick and was like fairy lace. (page 128)
Did I just read an entire riveting paragraph about BRICKS? This paragraph should be taught in writing classes to show how you involve all the senses.
Miss Tynmore pointed at her sternly. "Little girl, you'll be a story writer when you grow up." It was a command rather than a statement. (page 141)
Chapter 18: "My brother is next. His arm is just as dirty as mine so don't be surprised. And you don't have to tell him. You told me." They stared at this bit of humanity who had become so strangely articulate. Francie's voice went ragged with a sob. "You don't have to tell him. Besides it won't do no good. He's a boy and he don't care if he is dirty." She turned, stumbled a little and walked out of the room. As the door closed, she heard the doctor's surprised voice.
"I had no idea she'd understand what I was saying." (page 147)
The juxtaposition of what Miss Tynmore says in the previous chapter versus what the doctor says here is so interesting. Both sort of careless, offhand remarks, but with different outcomes and intentions.
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
With his hat in his hand. (page 111)
Questions for you:
1) Let's talk about Sissy here. Do you think Katie and Evy were in the right to disavow her because of the tricycle and condoms from the cigar box incidents? Or is she just misguided? Is this an unfair outcome for Sissy who does seem like she's just trying to be a good aunt?
2) The scene with Miss Tynmore asking for a cup of tea was very evocative to me. "The ladies knew what was polite and would come through with a cup of tea but they had no intention of supplying a meal and paying a quarter, too. So Miss Tynmore came to look forward to the house at the Nolans. The coffee was heartening and there was always a bun or a bologna sandwich to sustain her." (page 141-142) It reminded me of the conversation we had earlier about how Katie would let Francie dump out a cup of coffee every day. What do you think this has to say about charity and class? It seems that Katie is quite generous with the little that the Nolans have, but maybe that's not true for people with even a little more?
3) I am so impressed that Francie stood up to the doctor who was talking smack about her dirty arm. Do you think you could have stood up to an authority figure like that at age seven?
4) I think I've made it clear over the last few weeks that I feel like Katie is the heroine of the story here despite what might be her less than stellar parenting towards Francie, at least so far in the book. Who is the character that you are most resonating with on this read?
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
July 31 (Chapters 19 - 26)
August 7 (Chapters 27 - 32)
August 14 (Chapters 33 - 37)
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
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Interesting tidbits from last week's homework:
Anne sent along some photos from her 1992 HarperCollins edition, including a cool author's note that is not in my edition.
Okay, it starts with a story about a dog and ends with her talking about writing lots of letters. Oh, Betty Smith. I think we could have been good friends.
Thanks again for hosting! I am having so much fun rereading this book and also reading everyone's comments afterward! I actually made a really long comment on the last post and it got erased... :(
ReplyDeleteI think a parlour suite is a set of chairs or of chairs and a sofa of some sort. So basically the patio furniture of the parlour. https://www.1stdibs.com/buy/parlor-suite/
1. I think they were right to disavow Sissy, as she really does seem to be a bad influence sexually. You have to uphold your values, even though she does have a lot of good qualities too, and a sweet heart.
2. I noticed that too! I wondered why Katie gave an entire sandwich when it seemed like people who had more did NOT give as much. Maybe she is more understanding that we realize, and this is Smith's way of showing Katie's underlying compassion.
3. I do not think I would have stood up to an authority figure like that, but we have to remember that Francie also has to haggle with the butcher and the pickle man and the penny candy man and the scrap metal guy! She is used to having to fight for what she needs and this is no different. Also, she has had to basically be a mother to Neely in Katie's stead, so this is also her just doing what she is accustomed to doing! But the doctor's comment about her "not understanding" is just silly. Like she is not only dirty but stupid too.
4. Great question. At this point I am still trying to figure out who I like, but I think Francie is the star of the show. Despite a dead beat Dad and a mother who has to pick up his slack, she is turning out to be well adjusted (and I know this just gets better as the book goes by, so maybe my having read it already is tainting my opinion!)
Such a good point about Francie being accustomed to -- if not necessarily comfortable with -- standing up to authority figures!
DeleteHuh. Let me dig back and see if I can find a comment of yours that went to spam. I have been trying to stay on top of that. Sometimes Blogger gets mad at long comments!
DeleteI sort of wonder if Katie just doesn't *know* that other families are just giving the piano teacher weak tea and thinks that by providing coffee and a small snack that she's just keeping up with other families. Of course, Miss Tynmore isn't going to set Katie straight and how would Katie know? Also, I guess it is right that it's part of the 3 for 1 package!
I agree - I think Francie is more accustomed to dealing with adults and standing up for herself than most kids her age. Plus, she wanted to protect her brother from the mean doctor!
DeleteMy first long comment didn't publish either, so I started crafting them in Word just to be sure if it was too long I could divide it into two comments to keep Blogger happy :) They didn't bank on Engie starting such a FABULOUS book club where people would Have Things To Say!!!
DeleteI did the readings and have lots of flags in my book but we have company visiting and I don't have time to chime in this week so everyone is spared from my looonnnnggg thoughts (ditto everything about the vaccination story below) and quotes that stood out. Don't worry - I'll be back with too much to say next week ;)
Wow. These chapters really got into what a harsh and dog-eat-dog world the Nolans inhabit! Kids taking themselves to get vaccinations – from people who see them as less than human? Public schools so overstuffed that there aren’t enough bathrooms for the children, that are staffed with people who hate their charges, and that turn a blind eye to some real Lord of the Flies style bullying? Homes that have whatever horrific invention an airshaft is, right in the middle of the bedrooms? My goodness. This world sounds awful. I think it’s such a testament to the Nolans’ strength of character that they find moments of beauty and humanity amid such cruelty.
ReplyDelete1. I find the concept of shame to be so interesting in this book. This community seems so focused on what’s shameful and what isn’t, and so many of the things the characters are ashamed of are indignities suffered by many of them! There is something inherently shameful about being poor, for instance, even though that’s a condition pretty much everyone in the Nolans’ circle suffers from. But I think Sissy brought shame on the family in a new, possibly more targeted way – I mean, her (accidental!) indiscretion with the condoms resulted in the Nolans MOVING TO A NEW HOUSE. That seems like a hugely dramatic reaction to me. There must be such immense societal pressure to be/behave a certain way for them to feel that moving was their only recourse. I don’t want to condemn Sissy. She seems like she is doing her best – and she has so much love to give, and she does so much for her family. But I also don’t want to say that Katie reacted too harshly because the social expectations she is facing are so strict.
2) The scene with Miss Tynmore asking for a cup of tea was very evocative to me. "The ladies knew what was polite and would come through with a cup of tea but they had no intention of supplying a meal and paying a quarter, too. So Miss Tynmore came to look forward to the house at the Nolans. The coffee was heartening and there was always a bun or a bologna sandwich to sustain her." (page 141-142) It reminded me of the conversation we had earlier about how Katie would let Francie dump out a cup of coffee every day. What do you think this has to say about charity and class? It seems that Katie is quite generous with the little that the Nolans have, but maybe that's not true for people with even a little more?
2. I loved this scene, too! I also loved that Miss Tynmore very pointedly told Katie, I know that you are getting three sets of lessons for the price of one… but didn’t charge more or prevent it from happening. I also love that Katie sees the piano for what a treasure it is and makes sure she and her kids can take advantage of it.
3. This was such a touching moment for me. That Francie would overhear the doctor griping about her, that she would take it so to heart, and that she would then try to protect her brother from the same indignity – what a courageous thing to do.
4. To me, it was clear that Francie has a good support system around her. Well. Maybe not “good,” but she has all these people in her life who try their best to help her. Katie gets her piano lessons. Her father helps her deal with the terrifying vaccination site infection. Her aunt helps to handle the despicable Miss Briggs. Even Miss Tynmore sees that Francie has potential to be something more. These people all have their deficits – for sure – but they step up in the ways that they can. Francie may be lonely, but she’s not alone, which provides me a modicum of comfort.
That last point is so key! Francie seems to overlook some of the bad with the adults in her life and really focuses on the things that they do that increase her quality of life. She DOES have a lot of adults in her life who genuinely care about her.
DeleteIt's interesting that you are seeing a theme of shame in this book. Shame over Johnny's drunkenness, shame over the condoms being seen, shame over not having tea to serve...I had been thinking about it as a social status/pride thing, but I'll have to keep my eyes out and see if shame comes through more to me now.
Yes, this is such a great point, Suzanne! There is a real big focus on shame. I think the time period also has a lot to do with this. Society was much less accepting of being outside the status quo and things like Johnny's drunkenness and Sissy's CONDOMS (OMG) would really make a family an outcast.
DeleteI think your point four is great. It brings up the point that it takes a community (village) to raise a child, and of course everyone has their bad points but for sure everyone has their good ones, and Francie is getting a little bit of everything from people's good parts!
DeleteA friend of mine insists that a married neighbor of hers moved because the husband had an account on Ashley Madison and when that email list leaked, they immediately put the house on the market. I'm not sure if I believe that or not, it seemed too dramatic to me as well - a modern day instance of shame.
DeleteWhy don't you believe that they would move after that, Doris? I think it's a completely believable reaction!
Deletelonely but not alone-- I love this
DeleteSuch good writing and such a good story!
ReplyDelete1. Katie and Evy are technically in the right...but Sissy had good intentions.
2. Yes Katie is generous. She and Miss Tynmore start with a no-cash deal - cleaning as payment for a lesson, but both add more to the deal later on. Katie with the food and Miss Tynmore with the "three for one deal".
3. No I would never have stood up to the doctor at seven - unless it was to protect another kid, which is what Francie did.
4. I think Katie has the biggest share of the story now because she's such a huge part of Francie's world. Later on does the story shift over to Francie? That's what I remember but it has been such a long time since I've read the book.
Interesting that you think Katie and Evy are right! I just feel like it's a real overreaction on their part! I honestly think it's unlike Katie not to blame her own kids for failing to put the condoms away properly - why did they just leave them hanging out there for the whole neighborhood to see? It strikes me that Katie would normally go after Francie and Neely for that and it's weird that she went after Sissy in this situation.
DeleteI think I agree with you, Birchie! (Can I call you Birchie?) Maybe it's an overreaction, but I also think Katie has the right to do what she feels is best for her children and right now, I don't know that Sissy's actions are best.
DeleteWell, like an idiot I didn't read all the chapters- I thought it was chapters 11-15. I'm going to have to read the next couple chapters and come back to this discussion. But I will say that so much (in the chapters I did read) was sad. The organ grinder with the monkey, the girl who spits in Francie's face (noooo! Why couldn't she just be nice???) - it upsets me that Sissy is to be banned from their life. She's such a happy person, who really loves the kids. Francie and Neely need more people like that. Also... when they move to the new (now third) apartment they go from having their own bathroom to SHARING A BATHROOM WITH OTHER FAMILIES. I mean... can you even imagine? We sometimes complain that we "only" have two bathrooms for the four of us.
ReplyDeleteSure, I can imagine! We only had one bathroom for our entire family when I was growing up and then I went to college and shared a bathroom with forty other women!
DeleteWhat I can't imagine is an actual organ grinder wandering around my neighborhood with a monkey! I mean...this was only a hundred years ago. That would be so STRANGE to see in Brooklyn in 2023.
I shudder at the concept of sharing a bathroom with other families at a young age. It's one thing to do it in college, but kids make bathrooms so messy! Ha.
DeleteI wish Sissy, Katie, and Johnny could somehow have all their best parts morph into one decent adult parent figure for Francie. That poor kid.
ReplyDelete1. Sissy is the exact opposite of her sister Katie: she leads with her heart and doesn't give a damn about appearances or societal norms. She's all soft, whereas Katie is all hardness. I think Katie overreacted mightily. The kids don't even know what they were playing with, and the tricycle incident wasn't even the Nolans' fault. They left a terrific situation for the kids and themselves when all they needed to do was tough it out for a few days and let things go back to normal.
2. In my personal experience among my students, it was almost always the kids who had the least that were the most generous. I think it was because they had the immediacy of empathy: they knew what it was like to feel want. In Katie's case it may also have been because she is so concerned with appearance and status; she remarks that her offering might not be as good as what Miss Tynmore is used to in finer homes. She at least wants to offer something generous and substantial.
3. I think Francie was moved to speak up to the doctor because of her drive to protect her brother. She was willing to take whatever was necessary, but she didn't want him to speak that way to Neely. Her sense of sheltering and responsibility for Neely is ingrained now. After all, she has not been allowed to even attend school yet because she has to wait and start with him so as to protect him. It's all so unfortunate, isn't it? She's learning to live her life for someone else, just like her mother, and thanks to her mother.
I wanted to talk a little bit about the scene with poor Francie's infected arm and how she is resigned to, and waiting for, her death. She completely accepts responsibility for it as well--she must have scratched it in the night, and so her fate is complete, thanks to her mother's horror story. Her father listens to her, disinfects her arm, and is obviously stunned by the cruelty of his wife's behaviour. So much so that he refuses her rare affection in bed that night.
I'm stunned by it, too. And stunned by Katie's justification for not taking her kids to the vaccination to begin with. As I read it, it was so incredibly selfish (and cowardly). I get that, for all intents and purposes, she is a single parent. But there is a cold and ugly edge to her with regard to her children that is really terrible.
I found myself feeling similarly angry toward Katie because of the vaccination incident. But I can drum up a little sympathy for her by reminding myself that she is so completely ruled by fear. Fear of what other people think. Fear of losing her job. Fear of death. She seems to have no idea what a vaccination is (if her story about how it helps kids learn their right from their left is her real belief of its purpose), but she knows it's essential for the kids to go to school... and they have to go to school if they are to have any chance of leading a better life. I think it only makes sense that she would use fear to try to keep Francie from scratching her injection site. I'm not saying she was RIGHT -- it's all awful, and it most certainly dropped her a few pegs in my esteem. But I think she's so afraid all the time that it's no wonder her children are affected.
DeleteHuh. Well, Nance, you're definitely making me reconsider my pro-Katie stance. I guess I do make a lot of excuses for her (she can't miss work, she herself doesn't want to see the children in pain, etc.), but it does seem crazy to let kids go get vaccinations on their own. And then scare them so much about potential effects. I do understand that, like Suzanne said, Katie was scared herself, but isn't that even more reason to try and comfort the kids? Johnny comes out like a hero in this situation and that's crazy talk!
DeleteI wonder how much Katie is really ruled by Fear. Katie is a Striver. She even admits that the biggest reason she went after and wanted Johnny is because her best friend had him. She sees something and she goes after it. She wants a better life, so she uses whatever means necessary to get it, and sometimes those Means are her kids. She employs them like tools, using them to get what she wants, whether it's lower prices, advantages from a business, or more hours at her job, even if it means that she is a neglectful parent. She just ignores the small feeling of conscience, pushing it away and rationalizing by saying that kids need to toughen up for the world out there and that she needs to work.
DeleteThe idea that she freezes out Sissy for being overly loving and for at least trying to be maternal is more than ironic.
This isn't to say that Katie is in a tough situation. Is she ever. But why is her answer to make her kids' lives tougher, especially her daughter's?
I was really impacted by the vaccination storyline, too. And I can't imagine making kids that young go get their vaccinations BY THEMSELVES, just because she was afraid/couldn't miss work. It was so selfish and really makes me despise Katie even more. I am trying to give her some grace, but the way she foists so much responsibility onto poor Francie (even forcing her to wait a year to start school so she can start with Neeley!) is difficult.
DeleteEngie and Nance - your comments and responses are really making me think back about how I felt about Katie when I read this book for the first time (I was probably about 10) and I recall thinking she was strict but strong and that Johnnie was an irresponsible but cheerful drunk. Now I am starting to see the darker side to both of them and it is strange to think of how I glossed over that as a child.
DeleteNance: Yes to your whole first point! I am very attached to Sissy and I also see Katie as having overreacted - twice - to temporary situations. I feel like it would have blown over eventually but she uprooted her family - twice - and one of those times was from a home that had brought them happiness. (I may not love Katie.)
DeleteSo glad I am now right on the timeline with our book club reading.
ReplyDelete1. I think it was a bit of an overreaction or the cumulation of too many smaller things. I can understand Katies frustration – trying hard to make a living and persister torpedoing it. I also don’t think Sissy intentionally wants to. Harm her loved ones. She is just a bit careless walking around with her head in the clouds. I guess that is why the kids loveher so much.
2. Totally agree and I think we can see it today too. The more you have the more you keep your money and belongs to each other. When you have less I guess you can sympathize more and are sooner sharing. Not that I think it is a good character trait though. I also thought the Miss Tynmore really struggles if sheerly lives of the tea of hercloients. It must be a. Hard life too. Overall I think everyone in this book so far is struggling and carrying his/her weight along the lines path.
3. I think it would have been either for me to stand up as a kid than it is today. I have a very strong sense of justice and often open my mouth without thinking much. It has been getting better bu I sure made life hard for myself. So I guess I would rather be surprised if I didn’t. But then, I usually care more about other than myself when doing it. So maybe not?
4. I think I am resonating more with Fannie than with Katie. But You never know. I also like the Sissy character because she is just not the norm. Nit sure if I would identify with her but there is some sort of admiration.
I had to look up what a Charlotte Russet is and now thinking about making one. My husband would love it. Me not so much but I am intrigued. Did anyone ever done one?
Ha! I knew what a charlotte russe is because I watch Great British Bake-Off! I feel like I have learned a lot about desserts and pastries because of that show. I would never make one because ladyfingers are super hard to replicate gluten-free, but I would love to hear about it if you do experiment with one!
DeleteI do feel like I'm less sold on Katie after reading some of these comments. I think she's in a tough spot, but she's also not a great parent. Hm. Sissy has never appealed to me as a character and she still doesn't because I think her thoughtlessness is not a great trait (why didn't she just take the condoms out of the box when she gave it to Francie and Neely?!). However, on this read, I just really feel for her and how much she must want children of her own to keep having miscarriage after miscarriage.
Two things really stood out to me in this section: (1) The vaccination story. I was so angry at Katie for forcing Francie and Neeley to go alone to their appointment. It was so selfish on her part. But also, holy misinformation Batman! This whole section made me want to trace the way vaccination misinformation has carried through over the years. There was so much incorrect information that Katie was given!
ReplyDelete(2) Francie's loneliness, and the way children refused to play with her mostly due to her parents. It made me think a lot about how we grow up and the way our parents' choices affect us. In Francie's world right now, it's a very stark and she can feel the way her parents' choices reverberate on her own life: kids don't want to play with her. It's very sad.
Okay, onto the questions!
1) I think it was both an overreaction on Katie's part to disavow Sissy AND I think she was completely in the right to do what she did. I don't think Sissy has any ill will toward Katie or the kids, but Katie also needs to do what she feels is right for her kids. It's sad, but I can understand where Katie is coming from.
2) Like others have said, I find that those who have little are the most generous. This didn't surprise me at all!
3) Absolutely not! But Francie is growing up very differently than I did. She deals with adults way more than I did at seven - haggling with a butcher! And she has a very maternal air toward Neeley. She reacted the way a mother would in telling off the doctor/nurse and making sure Neeley didn't endure the same level of meanness as she did.
4) Francie is forever and always my favorite. She has my heart so much! The way she thought being a teacher's pet meant she would have to LITERALLY turn into a dog or a cat. I love her so much.
Francie's loneliness is so heartbreaking. And, honestly, I don't think it's going to get much better. Sometimes I wonder what happened to Maudie from Chapter Six? The girl she went to confession with? Do you think she no longer available to do things with now that the Nolans have moved? Why doesn't Francie have more friends?!
Delete1. So much judgment regarding Sissy. I think she earns some of it, but I believe she has a good heart, especially towards Neely and Francie.
ReplyDelete2. I was surprised about the Piano teacher asking for tea…but the writer letting us know that she was just as poor as Katie and Johnny was eye opening. For some reason, I was thinking she would be in a different social class than the Nolans. Knowing that Katie, as poor as she/her family is shared as much as she did, says a lot. This woman conflicts me!
3. There is no way that I, at seven would have said something to the Dr. About his comments. But I bet his words would have stayed with me for a long time.
4. Coming from a household where I was left to my own devices for most of my childhood, I connect more with Francie. Although I can’t say I had to walk myself to a Dr. At 7 for a vaccination. Good Lord, Katie!
What I had to look up (or clarify)
*Delirium Tremens. (I had a feeling what it was, but it looked/sounded strange)
*Heimdickischer I had a feeling it was German slang, and it was.
*I thought the Zinc tub was interesting in the new apartment, but thought of the airshaft sounds like the stuff of nightmares.
*The fact that the other kids weren’t friendly towards Francie because she talked differently; Begat is my new favorite word.
Oh, and I assumed a parlour suite was a couch and matching chair, but I could be wrong.
I assumed the piano teacher was a higher class, too! I guess because I think of having access to an expensive instrument and musical education is a luxury for people with expendable money, but as we see with the Nolans, it can be obtainable for people at the lower end of the economic spectrum, too. (My husband just started reading this book and he admitted to me rather shamefully that until the Catholic/Protestant discussion, he sort of assumed this was a story about a Black family, not an immigrant family. We all go into these things with preconceptions!)
DeleteThe airshaft! Argh. It sounds so frightening and can you even imagine the smell?!
1. Poor Sissy. She's the only person living her best life and teaching these children to do the same. It is great the times the Nolans make their own happiness, but Sissy is a pioneer. I can empathize with Katie (I have never lived in her circumstances so I can't judge her actions) but I have little sympathy for someone who uproots her family over an embarrassing situation. For all her strength this is a strange bit of cowardice.
ReplyDelete2. It may be that "Do unto others..." gets shuffled to the back corner when you don't need others to do so much for you.
3. I don't think I would have stood up against someone humiliating me. But I would have started a fight out of fear. No one could make a scene and have a panic attack like I could.
4. Sissy. (In my mind, Sissy has a Southern accent and secretly ends every sentence with "Yeah Buddy.")
But also - here's the thing - I don't love Katie, and I don't hate Johnny. He obviously comes through in the vaccination chapter with how tender and loving he is. Francie DOES need that. And I like that Katie is the smart breadwinner. In a perfect world they would both be everything Francie needs, but they aren't, and she needs all of these things, so I can't completely fault Johnny nor Katie for being the antithesis for each other.
Favorite lines:
The whole of chapter sixteen. You know how there's an entire chapter of whale names in Moby Dick? I want a novel that just wanders from store to store throughout an entire city. And the SMELLS. Like the brick paragraph, I love the whole paragraph describing all of the spices. I love that the neighboorhood kids named the wooden Indian "Aunt Maimie." I love the description of the abacus without using the word abacus.
I also loved the description of Miss Tynmore's hat: "Her hat was the breast and wing of a red bird tormentingly pierced by two hatpins." (Page 138)
Another shift in POV: The doctor and the nurse each getting a backstory. I know it's to demonstrate the doctor as AN OUTSIDER and the nurse as a sympathetic traitor of sorts. "The nurse had chosen the forgetting way." (Page 145). But again, these particular backstories are not a POV any character central to the narrative thus far would know. It's just another one of those moments that can't be described as "how Francie would see it" but instead a slip into a more omniscient POV.
LOL forever about Chapter 16. You'll notice I have no lines of note from Chapter 16 because I didn't find the writing that interesting or compelling. My notes for that chapter simply says "stores -." I think this right here possibly explains all of our differences in our preferred reading material. I don't need that much scene setting or world building - I want the characters to be in the mix!
DeleteThe nurse/doctor POV was an interesting choice. I honestly think the doctor was a jerk, but I also wonder what the medical staff would see over and over again in a poor neighborhood and how defeating it would be. That never excuses treating people as if they aren't people, but I think more from those characters would be fascinating.
Hi! Very quickly popping in to say that the vaccination scene is the only scene that I really remembered in detail from the first time I read this book. I remember being so sad for them at the time and I still am now. What a different world we live in compared with 120 years ago - children were expected to be so grown, people were so awful, living in horrible conditions mean that people could be horrible to each other. I thought it was very tragic that the nurse, who came from awful conditions, chose not to have compassion for the children. It made me think that we truly can choose our reactions and choose our lives, if that makes sense (I don't know, I'm still in unpacking chaos, do I make sense, who knows, I'm not deleting this comment). Also when I was reading, I remembered the scene where the piano teacher tries not to wolf down her food because she's essentially starving. So much poverty and trials in that area at that time, I can hardly imagine the sheer difficulty of life.
ReplyDeleteWhen I recently went on the water tower tour (built 1901), the guides were talking about how they built it and how they would climb on ladders up the water tower without any safety equipment and I marveled at how people back then were made of sterner stuff than I am. I think this book demonstrates that, too. If I had all these trials Francie faces (pinches for coins, doctors thinking I don't understand English, a librarian who doesn't acknowledge me), I would be so upset!! But it's just Francie's life and she's just living it.
DeleteOkay, I'm back! Only a day late, and I've now read all the chapters. Like the Angry Taoist (above) I also loved chapter 16. The description of all the coffees and teas... the chinese laundry... it was so good. Details like that are so vivid to kids. The vaccination chapter was also fascinating. The doctor's comment- "I had no idea she'd understand what I was saying." Does he think that Francie is foreign because she has a dirty arm? Or that she's stupid? I was so glad Francie spoke up!
ReplyDeleteI think that Francie is from an immigrant community and a lot of times people think immigrants don't understand English? I think that's what's going on in this scene. (It is weird because English has been the dominant language in Ireland since the 1700s, but the discrimination against immigrants in the US has a long history.) I mean, maybe he thinks she's stupid, but I think it's a literal language thing here.
DeleteKids can be so mean. Sometimes I think they are meaner than adults. "The other youngsters avoided her because she talked funny." Poor Francie.
ReplyDeleteThe cop to Sissy - "It ain't no skin off your teeth." Only he didn't say "teeth"... - what did he say? I didn't know any other substitution - apparently it's no skin off your ass.
Sissy goes on a "chop suey date" - interesting Asian-ness in the story.
OMG - the description of the brick wall was my favorite!
Words I looked up:
Cruet: a small container for the wine or water to be used in the celebration of the Eucharist (what can I say? I'm not religious and did not grow up in a religious household)
Dockle - insult, I guess I'm not good at insults - socially awkward, clumsy, dimwitted
Tomby - "gave off a tomby smell" - can't find a definition
Isinglass - I think this is mica (for the windows)
There is a line about the nurse - "She had the knowledge that she was small, but she lacked the courage to be otherwise". I've been this person and when I'm stressed, I revert back to it, but I spend a lot of my life striving to have the courage to do the right thing.
If I remember correctly, "tomby" was used to describe the airshaft, right? So, it is then (I am pretty sure) referring to the smell of a tomb - dank, damp, etc. I went down a rabbit hole on the airshafts because of reasons I'll explain in more detail when I come back to post (tomorrow, I am hoping). But if you read about them, they were dank, damp, dark, really disgusting things. Just (not) the thing one would want in one's bedroom.
DeleteYes! I think tomb-y is the best way to think of it. I honestly shudder to think of the smell.
DeleteI am really astounded by the passage about the bricks. How did she manage to write such a riveting passage about it?
I think cruet is used in secular contexts, too. I've heard it used to describe what I would call a jar. LOL.
Tomb-y! Of course. I read it as tom-by. thank you!
DeleteYou know, when I read this as a child I didn't judge Katie or Johnny or Sissy--adults were adults, and I was more interested in the ways in which Francie coped. It was Francie and her inner life I was most interested in. And... growing up super privileged and protected myself, I think I may have envied the freedom and independence Francie had. Reading as an adult, I'm horrified by all that the children do. But still, I love the web of community and how people take care of each other. I think it's particularly true of places like Brooklyn with its waves of immigrants?
ReplyDeleteOooh... and thanks for posting my book pic :)!
DeleteInteresting. I never read it as Francie having a lot of independence! It seemed like she always had chores or had to watch Neely (like getting him to the doctor for the vaccination) or whatever. It seemed like she was very put upon by adults. At least, that was my reading as a child.
DeleteBut I do agree that I didn't really think much about the adults at all. They were just adults doing adult/boring things.
Maya-- it's always Francie for me, too! In my head, this book goes with The Little Princess and Sara Carew-- I need to unpack this a bit.
DeleteI read the chapters ahead of time and had every intention of copying down stuff and hopping on early yesterday, but then... didn't.
ReplyDeleteI think Francie has always been the main character for me, with Katie a close supporting character. I never would have been able to stand up to the doctor the way she did - I would barely be able to do it now. I was impressed at the way Smith summed up the nurse's character in a few short lines - how she came from poverty and as a result felt obliged to be cruel and cold about poor people.
I thought they were ridiculously hard on poor Sissy, but it seemed completely in character and accurate for the time. It seemed terribly sad that they had to move to an apartment that wasn't as nice because of such ridiculous events.
Oh, yes, to the point about Smith's writing. She was so clear about the nurse in just a few sentences! Just glorious writing of characters. Many years ago, I did a writing project on my blog where I wrote short descriptions of people I knew (found it! 2009-2010 - 45 words - https://ngradstudent.blogspot.com/search/label/45%20x%20365) and I think I was hoping I would be able to write character descriptions like Betty Smith. I think I mostly failed.
DeleteI went down a rabbit hole (or, multiple rabbit holes, truth be told) on the airshafts and, um, eugenics. :) Because I'm a nerd. Like you didn't know that already.
ReplyDeleteAnyway! These chapters. They always hit me like a ton of bricks, every time I read them. One reason? They show just how little the Nolans had. The descriptions of the packing, that all of their belongings fit on the ice-man's truck, and the apartments, and the ways in which they had to bargain or trade to get so much of what they need... it always reminds me of how much I have now.
I am also struck by Francie's loneliness (mentioned by others) and the inherent cruelty of children and, well, some (many?) adults. Like Engie, the description of the bricks was one of my favorite passages, but this quote really stood out to me:
"They [the bricks] glowed when the sun shone on them. They smelled warm and porous when Francie pressed her cheek against them."
Francie seems to seek out sensations, warmth, comfortable things (I'm thinking of the pillow on the balcony in our first week of reading). In the description of the kitchen, it includes this description related to the boiler:
"Often on a cold day, Francie came in chilled and put her arms around the boiler and pressed her frosty cheek gratefully against its warm silveriness."
She gets so little love and affection, so she looks for warmth, it seems, wherever she can.
OK, airshafts. This is personal - my mother's family lived in Hell's Kitchen when they immigrated to NYC. They lived there for years. It's not Brooklyn, but the tenements were similar. So, for those of you who want to understand more about why these airshafts were built (short version: builders getting around code and basically shafting those who lived in these tenements), and how horrific they were, this is a great summary:
https://www.6sqft.com/a-short-history-of-new-york-citys-foul-air-shafts/
And the vaccination story. Oh, my heart. As a nurse, the attitudes of the resident (I'm not elevating him to physician, sorry) and the nurse were just heartbreaking. I can't even get into what they said, but the resident's statements about not letting poor people "breed" align with the eugenics movement at that time in history. A good description here:
https://sites.uw.edu/twomn347/2019/12/12/early-american-eugenics-movement/#:~:text=The%20American%20eugenics%20movement%20was,human%20race%20through%20selective%20breeding
And Wikipedia, as always:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States
Horrifying, to say the least.
The airshaft article was super interesting. Of COURSE it was landlords subverting a law that led to these absolutely disgusting airshafts. For a brief moment, I thought maybe that's where the phrase "shafting someone" (like you used in your post!), but then I looked up the origin of that phrase and it actually comes from the word "shaft" which has a definition of push someone or something with a pole. So, I actually went down a bit of a rabbit hole on that.
DeleteI love that you pointed out all the times that Francie is literally embracing/touching inanimate objects for comfort. That's not a theme I would have come up with on my own, so I'm going to start looking for it!
Anne! This is my research area because Margaret Sanger was a public health nurse who came of age and into activism in these very neighborhoods! And what makes it so so so fascinating is that women ALSO WANTED to stop having babies they could not afford to raise. So, not as simple as top-down eugenics.
DeleteSarah, that IS fascinating! I was coming at it from my research perspective (genetics), which just goes to show that what we see (or read, or infer) is influenced by our tendencies to align with our perspectives/beliefs/knowledge! I'm fascinated! (How did I forget that Sanger was a nurse??)
DeleteLoved reading your rabbit hole findings, Anne.
DeleteSecond part of my (LONG SO SORRY ENGIE) comment:
ReplyDeleteOK, questions. I'll keep this short. HA!
1) I am an idiot. Either that or overtired and overworked. I completely missed that it was condoms in the box. Despite finally realizing what the "rubber" factory made a few chapters ago. Completely clueless. Anyway! I think Sissy has a good heart, but is misguided, and one of those people (come on, we all know them) who desperately wants to help but winds up making the situation worse/more complicated. Also? Katie and Evy can hold a grudge. This was not unfamiliar to me - same family that lived in Hell's Kitchen, I had a great-aunt who held a grudge against her former best friend for the last 20 years of their lives. They'd known each other for 50-60 years at that point, but she was not. going. to. budge. So I kind of get it? But kind of hate it, too.
2) The bargaining and trading, again, is so interesting to me. It's so common! It's expected! And - a rarity for me - I felt for Katie when she wasn't sure what Miss Tynmore needed as she stood there expectantly. The shame Miss Tynmore seems to have felt, asking essentially for a handout from someone just as poor as she, is so clear.
3) Hell to the no. No. Way. Seriously, Francie, you go.
4) I am loving it all, to be honest. I feel like now that I am older, my appreciation for the rich variety of characters Betty Smith created is so much greater. I don't often like books like this - character-rich, focused on a lot of descriptive and evocative writing (I didn't even get to my love - in contrast to Engie! - of the "stores" chapter...). But this one, oh this book has my heart for always.
Smith calls the condoms "balloons" on the first page of Chapter 14, so I can absolutely see why the condoms reference flew over my head when I was a child, but I can also see myself being very puzzled as to why balloons hanging out of a window would be so shameful!
ReplyDeleteMy father was a serious grudge holder and didn't talk to his own sister for decades. I only ever my father's father once because I don't think my father talked to his father once in my lifetime. So, grudges are a thing!
I am honestly really relieved that this book is holding up to such a close reading. I remember loving it as a child and as a 20something, but I wasn't sure if maybe I just wasn't quite the cynic I am today. I am also really happy there are folks here who are reading it for the first time and are happy to burst my bubble when I get too nostalgic about it!
I just felt like a complete moron about the condom thing! I mean, duh, Anne. She works in a *condom factory*. *forehead slap*
DeleteAh, so your family has grudges, too? My mother's take is, life is Too Da** Short. I like that, myself. :)
OMG, I so feel you on the relief at it holding up. I was so, so worried. So many books don't hold up, and I like to think I only keep those that do, but... I hadn't picked this up for so long (maybe in my early 20s? but not likely...) that I was really, really worried. Big sigh of relief, for sure. And I find so many different things now that I am older (although perhaps not wiser...).
Engie-- I agree SO MUCH about the relidf of the close reading. I was worried at first, but this book is just as wonderful as I remember (which was not exactly true for my recent foray into the Anne of Green Gables world).
DeleteThere's so much in these chapters... I am highlighting away as I read and I feel like I can't even address it all.
ReplyDeleteI am really enjoying how the writing often captures observations from a childlike perspective... how everything has a bit of magic to her (and how imaginative she is) and then is disappointed when the reality turns out not even half as magical (e.g. when Johnny tells her that he's crossed the bridge that they can see from the roof and Francie thinks that this must have changed him in some tangible) way.
Katie is definitely the heroine of the story. Even though they're poor and uneducated, she "really" runs the family life with her determination and resourcefulness. It's impressive to me how much of a planer and thinker she is, if you consider the time and setting, and that the women in this book seem to be so much more "capable" than men in many ways... (but honestly, that hasn't really changed, has it? Haha.)
I'm REALLY interested to see if the childlike perspective changes as Francie gets older! I don't really remember from my previous reads, but it's crazy what she comes up with (the bricks!) and I'm definitely going to be watching out for a change in tone.
DeleteI didn't comment last week, because I wasn't paying attention and thought we were supposed to read 5 chapters each week, not more than that, so then I showed up here and read about Frankie's vaccine and infection and thought, "How did I forget that already???? Have I had a stroke???" So then I realized my error and got caught up, but then there were SO MANY COMMENTS that I felt overwhelmed. So here I am, with not a lot to say, except that I also LOVED the writing about the bricks, and it reminded me of when I was in college. There were some brick steps that we used to sit on and chat in the 'quad', and when it was hot, you could lick the back of a gummy bear and stick it to the side of a brick and watch it melt and get all stretchy. I think Frankie would have LOVED that. I want to go back in time (and to her fictional place, I guess) and bring her a bag of gummies.
ReplyDeleteOoohhhh... I have never even heard of doing such a thing with a gummy bear, but now I really want to! I'm bringing some gummy bears over to the brick municipal building the next time it gets really hot!
DeleteOh, and I was not angry with Katie for making Francie go get vaccinated alone. She had to work and losing the wages would have been a real hardship for them. I did get angry at the shitty nurse and the shitty resident though, for their cruelty. What asshats. And clearly incompetent to boot, since she got the infection. Katie and Johnny's attitude about vaccination struck home, about how they were all for it, though it had not been available for them. When my mom was a little girl, Polio was a huge thing, and people were terrified of getting it. Then a vaccine came out, and people lined up to get their shots and have protection. Not sure what my point is exactly, just that I'm glad that Francie and Neely at least got vaccinated, even if it was just so they could attend (the shitty) school.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I have mixed feelings about Katie on the vaccination front. I think it's crazy that she let her young kids go by themselves, but they were clearly much more independent than I was at that age, so I can let that slide. But Francie was so scared to tell her mother that her site was infected - that seems like not great parenting to me! What if Johnny hadn't come along?
Delete