Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by the one and only Betty Smith. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 1-5. Let's dive in!
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Synopsis:
We are introduced to Francie Nolan, her family, and their neighborhood in Brooklyn. Francie is eleven, a bookworm who has big dreams. Neely is a year younger than Francie and seems like a decent chap. Fading beauty Katie Nolan, Francie's mom, cleans tenements to support the family, and she knows how to make some stale bread stretch to feed a family of four for a week. And then there's Johnny Nolan. He's a charming drunk who everybody loves, but everybody also knows he's the reason the family is surviving on stale bread.
This is a neighborhood where everybody knows everybody. We've got Frank, the guy who drives a horse around town advertising a dentist. We've got the downstairs neighbors, the Gaddis family, with Henny who's dying from consumption and Flossie who's trying to seduce Frank by wearing costumes she makes herself to hide her burned right arm. We've got a junkman, lots of owners of small shops, and that librarian who never looks at Francie and recommends the same two books to her over and over again.
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Things I looked up:
Tree of Heaven (Chapter 1, page 6 in my copy) - The tree of heaven (Ailanthus altissima) is a rapidly growing tree native to China that has become a widespread invasive species across North America after it was brought to the US in the late 1700s to be used as a shade tree. Because it grows quickly and doesn't have any insect or disease problems, it has spread aggressively throughout the US and has crowded out native plants.
Based on street names in Chapter 1 (pages 7 and 11), here's a (modern) map of Williamsburg with street names to help orient you. There are walking tours for ATGIB and someday I'd like to go to NYC and do one.
Flossie had six sheaths of various colors and the same number of tarleton underskirts...(Chapter 4, page 41) - Tarleton is a thin open-weave cotton that is stiffened (usually with starch), giving it more shape than gauzy muslins.
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 1: Oh, what a wonderful day was Saturday in Brooklyn. Oh, how wonderful anywhere! People were paid on Saturday and it was a holiday without the rigidness of a Sunday. People had money to go out and buy things. The ate well for once, got drunk, had dates, made love and stayed up until all hours; singing, playing music, fighting and dancing because the morrow was their own free day. (page 6)
This is such a great introduction to Francie's neighborhood. It's a tough neighborhood, what with people getting drunk and fighting, but weekends are such a luxury, maybe even especially for the working poor.
Chapter 2: As she read, at peace with the world and happy as only a little girl could be with a fine book and a little bowl of candy, and all alone in the house, the leaf shadows shifted and the afternoon passed. (page 26)
You think this is a sweet sentence and then it takes a dark turn there at the end. There's something ominous about the shadows shifting.
Chapter 3: Then he whispered, "I am not a happy man. I got a wife and children and I don't happen to be a hard-working man. I never wanted a family."
Again that hurt around Francie's heart. He didn't want her or Neely? (page 35)
Talk about ominous. Francie loves Johnny, but we know from the start that he ain't no good.
Chapter 5: The factory made a few rubber toys as a blind. It made its big profits from other rubber articles which were brought in whispers. (page 43)
Condoms! I definitely missed this reference when I read this book as a child. If we assume Francie was born 1900(ish), then this is in 1911-1912(ish) and Margaret Sanger was getting into all sorts of trouble for her New York Call sex education columns and Comstock Acts were in full force. So interesting to see all these things coming together as I'm reading this book now.
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
He took his hat off and threw the cigar away when he saw Francie come in. (Chapter 3, page 33)
Mama was wearing her jade green hat which made her skin look like cream off the top of the bottle. (Chapter 5, page 42)
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Questions for you:
1. Have you read this book before? What's your history with it? How are you reading it now (physical book, audiobook, etc.)?
2. In Chapter 1, we're also introduced to the idea of Neely and Francie collecting refuse to take to the junk man. When I was a child living in Michigan, pop (I say pop - deal with it) cans and bottles had a deposit of ten cents each and my sister and I used to walk the road we lived on looking for them to take to the store to earn money. What did you do when you were that age to make money?
3. In Chapter 2 it says "Francie liked to play a game in which she imagined that people looked like their pets and vice versa" (page 27). Do you look like your pet? Do you think I look like Hannah the Dog or Zelda the Cat?
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| I think I look like Hannah because we both have brown eyes and brown hair. I could never be as glorious as Zelda. Her eyes! |
4. If you were the librarian and a little girl came in to ask what book you recommended for an eleven-year-old girl, what two books would be in your rotation?
5. One of the more interesting divides in Francie's neighborhood is about religion - the Jews versus the Christians, particularly the Catholics. Is there a divide like that in your neighborhood today?
7. When I read this book as a child, so much of this went over my head, like the sexual violence (Carney and Gimpy - wow!) and condoms reference, not to mention the absolutely uselessness of Johnny Nolan (Francie loved him, so I did too!) and how absolutely heartbreaking it must have been for Aunt Sissy to give birth to ten children and have none of them live. When I read this book as a child, I thought of Francie as the heroine of the story, but as an adult, I really admire Katie Nolan and all she's doing to keep her family together and fed and I'm seeing it more as her story. If you're doing a reread, what have noticed is different for you?
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
July 17 (Chapters 6 -10)
July 24 (Chapters 11 - 18)
July 31 (Chapters 19 - 26)
August 7 (Chapters 27 - 32)
August 14 (Chapters 33 - 37)
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
I read this book as an adult at a similar time to reading Angela's Ashes and 'Tis, and believe me, I had some FEELINGS about the fathers in both of those books. I did NOT love them. I thought they were useless drunk assholes who only thought about themselves, and I still get fired up thinking about them. I'm reading the book on Kindle, which I got for $1 on the Cdn site.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I learned just this weekend from a different book is that the Tree of Heaven is very stinky. I don't know in what way it is stinky, but apparently it is.
Since I first read this book as an adult none of the references went over my head, but I wasn't yet a mom (I was probably 24 or so) and it didn't really hit me about the ten dead babies. How absolutely sad.
I did notice the religious divide and also, how beautiful the world is to Francie, when in reality, those tenements would be pretty rough. The scene that stood out to me is when Francie is reading and the girls are getting ready to go out with their fellows, all washing out their armpits. I can visualize this so clearly, and I love that Francie sees this as a lovely thing, because in reality, it's not. It's amazing the eyes of a child, and what they know is what they love.
She does make it all sound so lovely-- loved the images of the girls bent like ballerinas with their arms raised.
DeleteI always think about Flossie and Frank when I think of this book. Flossie's just doing the best with what she has and Francie KNOWS that. It's such an evocative scene.
Delete1. My grandma gave me this book when I was a kid, so I probably read it for the first time when I was maybe 10 or 11? And then I have reread it at least a half a dozen times. I am currently reading the audiobook just for a change of scenery.
ReplyDelete2. My parents owned a business and we had to work for them; I think I started around the age of 8 and it included crushing cans, bagging ice and rolling quarters at first, and then working in their store stocking shelves, ringing people up, giving back (counting) change, answering phones etc.
3. You look more like Hannah; I agree! My cat passed away but he was black with green eyes, and I am white with blue eyes, so I think that he did not look like me!! I had a black lab growing up, but again, same story...
4. I would suggest a Tree Grows in Brooklyn! Or maybe the book Refuge or Ground Zero, which are both more recent books about current issues.
5. I have no idea what religion the people in my neighborhood are!
6. I always disliked Johnny and could not understand his alcoholism as a kid. I still feel the same way and especially after having experienced more people like him in real life. I am not a fan of deadbeat dads!
We had a Lhasa apso that looked just like my father, so I think it is true that sometimes peopel are drawn to pets that look like themselves!
DeleteThank you so much for leading this discussion, Engie! So much fun!
ReplyDelete1. Yes! I read this book in the early to mid 2010s. I listened to it via audiobook, in the car with my husband. My history with audiobooks until that point was that I fell asleep every time. But this book was so gorgeously written, I stayed awake. I am reading it as a physical book now, and I like that I can engage with it again via a different medium.
2. I got an allowance. Womp womp. No money making schemes here. (My family lived pretty far out of town in a very rural area; our closest neighbor was a mile away.)
3. No pets. But I think you have elements of both pets. You are all three very pretty and you share a sort of regal alertness.
4. I have no idea!!! My daughter is barely ten and I am not quite sure what’s right for her. So I’m going to follow the answers to this question closely.
5. I am not sure about this! I do know that my husband and I are one of a handful of families on our street that aren’t Catholic. But that doesn’t seem to bother anyone.
6. I have forgotten a LOT of this book since I first listened to it. I think a bunch of it went over my head. (And still, I did not get the rubber reference, although I sort of suspected.) The Aunt Sissy thing is heartbreaking. And wow, Katie Nolan. The thing I find most moving is the juxtaposition between how Francie views her father and the kind of man he really is. This first chapter made me really dislike him. Like Nicole, I find it so fascinating to see the world through Francie's eyes. It is so vivid and rich, every inch of every experience worth examining and excavating for the beautiful and the good.
Quotes That Jumped Out to Me
p. 31-32 “Yes, everyone loved Johnny Nolan. He was a sweet singer of sweet songs. Since the beginning of time, everyone, especially the Irish, had loved and cared for the singer in their midst. His brother waiters loved him. The men he worked for loved him. His wife and children loved him. He was still gay and young and handsome. His wife had not turned bitter against him and his children did not know that they were supposed to be ashamed of him.”
P. 35 “Other waiters wore readymade bows attached to elastics. But not Johnny Nolan. Other waiters wore soiled white shirts or clean shirts indifferently ironed, and celluloid collars. But not Johnny. His linen was immaculate, if temporary.”
Things I Don’t Understand/Went Over My Head
p. 40-41 – What are the “other rubber articles which were bought in whispers” that Sissy’s factory makes? THANK YOU, Engie for addressing this!
p. 42 – Why is “fricadellen” (the nickname Francie and her brother have for the meatballs they eat on Sundays; “frikadellen” seems to be the real name) a great joke between the kids?
Words I Had to Look Up
Klondike dance hall girl – an entertainer during the Klondike Gold Rush
Fillip – something which acts as a stimulus or boost to an activity
Fricadellen - seasoned German meat pattie
could also be pessaries at the factory
DeleteWhy IS fricadellen such a great joke? Because it sounds like frick/swear word substitute? Does anyone else know?
DeleteRE: fricadellen... I wonder if it has something to do with the origin of the name, since it seems to be German, Dutch or Polish? Like they're being naughty by using a word common among another group of a different ethnic origin? It could also be just the word itself, like you say, Engie.
DeleteWell, I had to stay up late reading last night to get my chapters read- i just finished the latest Ender book and had to dive directly into this one. I wasn't sure how that transition was going to be, but I immediately loved it. I read this a long time ago- maybe in my late teens? - and I don't remember it at all.
ReplyDeleteI loved the part where it describes how the mom brews a huge pot of coffee, and how it was doled out over the day. First of all you have to wonder how these people slept at night- but I remember my mom telling me that my grandparents drank coffee all day. If people came over after dinner to visit, they would even drink coffee then. I love how Francie likes to smell the coffee and hold the cup, and then her mom allows her the luxury of pouring it down the drain.
To answer some of your questions, I'm reading this as a physical book that I checked out of the library. For the pet one- I know of some hilarious examples where people look just like their pets (a family who owns pugs, and they all bear a striking resemblance to the dogs...) I wouldn't say you look exactly like Hannah, but the coloring is there!
For an eleven year old girl, the first thing that comes to my mind is Harry Potter. I wonder if kids nowadays like books like ATGIB? When I was little I loved old fashioned stories like this- like the fact that the kids can buy candy for a penny. But my daughter wouldn't be interested in this type of book at all.
For anyone who recently read Hello Molly- doesn't Johnny remind you of Molly's dad?
I loved the coffee too and the wastefulness-- the whole idea about the pride of having something to waste was fascinating since middle class culture preaches against wastefulness. But there's still that same class aspiration in having something to waste today, I think.
DeleteI don't think HP is cool anymore. Maybe Percy Jackson?
DeleteMy 14yo niece does not seem predisposed to reading ATGIB. I do wonder what librarians are recommending for kids these days? Or maybe librarians are doing a better job of asking kids what their interests are and actually tailoring suggestions for them? (Maybe that's just me being optimistic about librarians.)
Jenny, did you think that Johnny was closeted? I didn't get that feeling at all.
DeleteNo, I didn't- I actually forgot that (rather major) part of Hello Molly. Just something about the character and his role in the family were similar to me.
DeleteI loved the bit about the coffee too and especially the way Francielinks being able to waste sometihng with being rich.
Delete1. As far as I remember, I think I saw the movie in junior high (I remember nothing about it) and read the book sometime in late high school/early college. Around the same time I read Betty Smith's three other books, which I remember were good but obvi not as great as ATGIB. I've reread it a few times but it's been a while. I have a 1940's hardback that I bought at my hometown library for 50 cents (in mid 1990's dollars). There's a blurb on the back where Betty Smith pitches war bonds - I'll send you the pic.
ReplyDelete2. I remember cash back recycling machines for pop cans when I was a kid! My other money making schemes were plant watering and pet sitting when our neighbors would go out of town.
3. I think you have Zelda's nose and Hannah's eyes;-) Our dog most closely resembles my oldest stepson, and we used to joke about sending her to school in his place to see if anyone would notice.
4. Well, ATGIB of course. I'd check to make sure that the girl had read all of the Little House books and Little Women.
5. I have no idea what religion any of our neighbors are. That speaks volumes about living in a relatively spread out suburb vs early 1900's Brooklyn.
6. I was young enough when I first read this that is was all about Francie. Today I'm much more focused on the adults - Katie and Sissy.
I wonder how many times the word hat will be used - I'm thinking A LOT.
In general I tend to "gobble" down my books and not pay attention to the details. I've really enjoyed taking my time with this reread. I've kept myself to one chapter a day/no more than our 5 chapters a week.
Heck yes to a ATGIB walking tour!
The MOVIE! I've never seen it! Should I?
DeleteNot to give a lot away, but hat does seem to make a lot of appearances!
I am also enjoying reading the book at a slower pace. I am a voracious reader, but I feel like I'm really picking up a lot more from this book by thinking about each paragraph so carefully.
I'll watch the movie after we're done with the book, but I don't remember anything about it. There's no way it's anywhere as good as the book.
DeleteYes! The Little House books! Although I re-read them recently and they seemed a bit racist, and although I know that was just the times, it made me realize that I had just glossed over that as a kid.
Delete1. I read the book before but as an adult. But I didn't read it as closely as I am reading it now. I loved it before and Phil read it since I enjoyed it so much and he liked it, too. It's one of the few books I own so I am reading a physical copy!
ReplyDelete2. I didn't have an allowance and didn't get paid to do stuff for my parents until I was a bit older - like a teen, I think? So I don't remember making money until I was around 14, I think! My HS job was teaching piano lessons! I started doing that when I was 16.
3. I do not look like Oscar! Out of your 2 pets, you most resemble Zelda! There is a man in our neighborhood who looks so much like his dog. I hadn't seen him for quite awhile and feared he had passed away but I saw him recently!
4. Hmmm, this is a tough one. Probably Anne of Green Gables for a classic, or this book, and something more modern like Front Desk by Kelly Yang (which I haven't read but have heard great things about) or Wonder by RJ Palacio, although chances are they would have read that book.
5. I only know the religion of one household because the mom is a minister. She's Episcopalian. Other than that, I have no idea. In my town of origin, you pretty much knew everyone's religion. In a large metro area - nope.
6. Since I'm reading this more closely, I notice things like the reference to condoms. Or in one of the first chapters, she talks about how a man that works in a store is nice but then he "inveigled" a little girl into a back room. If I had read this as a child, I would have skipped over that word/had no idea what it meant and just moved on. But something questionable surely happened!
YES! Carny the junk man "liked girls better than boys" and Gimpy is in the back room doing something terrible! The sexual violence is so much more overt than I remember. CRAZY! I don't remember being aware of things like that at 11 - Francie is so much more mature than I was at her age.
DeleteI've read this book so many times before, but I read it first as a very young girl, probably age 8 or so. So much of it went way over my head, but I loved it. I was entranced by Francie and Aunt Sissy.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was little, I don't remember doing anything to make money. My brother, however, was always running paper drives, collecting bottles, saving the coins from Mallow Cups and Reese's Cups (to turn in to the company for free candies).
I sure hope I don't look like my cats!
I did have a librarian who I asked to recommend books to me, just like Francie. The big difference is that Miss Mamie--chubby and cheerful--always looked right at me and recommended different books to me each week. She was a treasure and I loved her. I'm so far removed now from YA and kid lit that I'm not sure what I'd recommend, outside of the Little House books, which are always tremendous. The Ramona Quimby series is also timeless, but may be young for 11 years old.
Reading the book now, I'm noticing more of the symbolism--how the ugliness of poverty always creeps into the beauty of the world. Flo Gaddis has the beautiful costumes, but they hide her disfigurement. Francie arranges her pretty pink wafers on a picturesque blue plate, but it has a crack in it. She gets an extra penny at the rag man, but she has to endure a painful pinch. Johnny looks handsome and debonair in his collar and suit, but it's cheap paper and threadbare. It's all very poignant.
The pinch was so distressing to me! Gah.
DeleteThe pinch and how Neely watched it! Was it distressing for Neely? Did he want to protect Francie? Or is it something that he's just learning is normal - that's how you treat girls? I have so many concerns about both Francie AND Neely from this scene.
DeleteI wrote an EPICALLY long comment, and it's not showing up. Before I re-type it out (why didn't I copy and paste it?), it might be in a spam folder due to length (or maybe something I wrote got flagged?) I'll check back later today and re-write it if it doesn't show up :(
ReplyDeleteIt's not in my spam! :(
Delete1. I am reading the same physical copy I have been reading since I was a kid, which was my mom’s and my grandma’s. I first read this book when I was 10, I think.
ReplyDelete2. Allowance. Then babysitting in my tweens and teens. And NOTHING until I graduated from college and worked at the Lancome counter for a semester before grad school.
3. Except that bulldogs all look like people, I have never noticed this (in the book or as an IRL phenomenon.
4. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, of course. Also the Anne books, Auntie Mame, and The Hate U Give.
5. Democrats and Republicans for us.
6.I was struck by the gendered distribution of labor. Katie had to do ALL OF THE WORK (and really, even if Johnny had been able to keep it together long enough to get a job, he still would not have been the one planning meals, etc. And I was struck by how much Francie did around the house that no one expected Neely to do. I noticed this as a kid, I think, but as an adult it made me look at my own home and think about gendered tasks we are passing down to our kids.
Things that stood out:
I will NEVER forget the passage about the dirty feet of the old man and how Francie imagined them as sweet baby feet and how panicked she felt about the sadness of aging/living with limited potential. When I was in grad school studying classical rhetorical theory, I encountered the concept of telos and thought of this passage instantly.
I also adore the tableau of Francie, the fire escape, the afternoon sun. her candy, the cracked bowl, and her library book– my ideal way to spend an afternoon ever since my first read of this book. I remember going to Walgreens on the way home from the library in the summer specifically to get these giant logs of Double Bubble so I could lie on the deck on a towel and read my book and chew gum.
YES! It's not a divide about religion for many of us anymore - it's political party. Interesting point and very true. I'm sure non-Christians might have a different reading on housing and segregation, but partisanship surely is the dividing factor in the US right now.
DeleteOh, I love this image of you with Double Bubble and a library book. You and Francie are twins!
Re: the division of labour. OMG YES SARAH. *fumes more about Johnny, who everyone loves and I haaaaaaate*
DeleteYes, I also thought about the division of labor and how so often so much more is expected of girls/women! I will say that I think I still do most of the mental work in our household, but I am happy to say that Jon really pulls his weight when it comes to chores!
DeleteWait...who loves Johnny?
DeleteI think Nicole is referencing this part of your post, Engie: "not to mention the absolutely uselessness of Johnny Nolan (Francie loved him, so I did too!)" <-- I know that you NOW see his uselessness. He was always a deplorable character to me, but I am definitely more sensitive to deadbeat dads!
DeleteThanks Stephany, this is what I was referring to, how Francie loves him "best" (at this part of the book anyway). And how everyone in the neighbourhood seems to love him.
DeleteWell, Johnny is described as charming. Don't we all know at least one lovable loser?
DeleteThis is my first time reading it. So many things are lingering in my brain after I put the book down. I tossed an old banana away the other day and realized that Francie pined away for fruit...and here I just tossed it away. 😳
ReplyDeleteI had to look up what Dying from Consumption was. Ugh...so terrible.
We used to drive with my Dad or walk though our hood and collect aluminum cans, then take them in for cash. I remember you had to have A LOT to get any money. My Step Sister and I collected soda bottles, returned them for cash too. (the good ole days)
I DID get the condom reference and I was proud of myself for that. 😜
I don't look like my dogs, but I thought you resembled the glorious Zelda more than Sweet Hannah.
Pop cans were worth 10 cents a pop in Michigan, so it actually didn't take much to get enough to go to the gas station (a twenty-minute bike ride away) to buy some candy. My parents could also sometimes be convinced to let us have a share of the money if we would take the cans to the recycling for them.
DeleteI frequently think about how much food waste there is in the world when I read things like this. Imagine throwing out a nectarine because there's a tiny squishy spot if you're in the Nolan family!
I discovered the issue! My comment was too long; this time I got a pop up message. So I'll post in increments.
ReplyDeleteI have MANY THOUGHTS. The first one being – I am so happy you set this up, Engie!!!
• I read this book for the first time in my early 20s. I loved it but didn’t have kids and think that has completely changed how I view the subjects being covered. I didn’t relate to Katie much at the time, but now she is the main focus of my attention.
• I also call it “pop” – how very Canadian of you 😊 My father used to collect pop bottles and use the money to buy candy. At the time, a bag of chips was $0.05 and a chocolate bar was $0.10. Talk about inflation. I didn’t work until I was a teen and did babysitting. No allowance for me, either, so they were lean early years!
• My favourite books as a kid were The Swiss Family Robinson (what an adventure; so resourceful) and The Trolley Car Family. So, I’d recommend those. Nancy Drew and the Boxcar Children and Encyclopedia Brown were my favourite series. I like to think if I were a librarian, I’d tailor my suggestions to each child based on their existing preferences.
• I read the book sooo differently this time. The description of the “childlike bride” – sorry this is from Chapter 6 - crying made me so sad. Was she being raped by her husband? I don’t know, but she was sad and it’s so tragic that Francie has to overhear her crying. I definitely *did* pick up on the condom reference.
Quotes:
ReplyDeleteFrom the forward (by Anna Quindlen): “If [after reading ATGIB] someone asked, “What is the book about?” – surely one of the most irritating and reductionist questions in the world for reader and writer alike – you would not say, well, it’s about the pedophile who grabs a little girl in the hall, or about the time a man went on a bender and lost his job, or about a woman who works as a janitor in a series of tenement buildings. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is not the sort of book that can be reduced to its plot line. The best anyone can say is that it is a story about what it means to be human.” A story about what it means to be human. We can all find a part of our story in this story, which makes it so brilliant.
Chapter One: Referencing the Tree of Heaven, it’s described as a tree that “liked poor people.” I thought this was such profound imagery. It’s an invasive non-native species that, presumably, most people wouldn’t want on their property. And the tenements – where the tree flourishes – is full of “poor foreigners.” I think it’s genius how Smith aligns botany with a socio-economic/immigrant class. Genius, yet sad.
I also thought Francie pouring out her coffee was such a poignant moment. “I think it’s good that people like us can waste something once in a while and get the feeling of how it would be to have lots of money and not have to worry about scrounging.” How insightful of Katie. Waste is luxury, in a way, and I think this action speaks of such deep love and understanding on their mother’s part.
Chapter Two: That mean librarian! “A smile would have meant a lot to Francie and a friendly comment would have made her so happy.” First, I’m so glad the unhelpful librarian didn’t undermine Francie’s love for books. Also – a smile and friendly comment go so far! What a good reminder of how much power our facial expressions and actions have in the lives of others.
Chapter Three: After her father tells Francie her mother is a “good woman.”
“Francie knew that Mama was a good woman. She *knew*. And Papa said so. Then why did she like her father better than her mother? Why did she? Papa was no good. He said so himself. But she liked Papa better.” Gah. This gave me all the feels. I have one child that I’m pretty sure prefers my husband and…it really does make me sad!
Chapter Four: Flossie’s umbrellas. “There were two dozen tightly rolled, never-used silk umbrellas in the closet; prizes she had won…Francie felt happy looking at all the umbrellas. Poor people have a great passion for huge quantities of things.” This tied in with the coffee experience in Chapter One. My parents were born shortly after WWII in a post-depression, post-war era and they keep everything! I think “stuff” is a source of security coming out of that scarcity mindset. Again, waste is a form of luxury. So much to unpack here...
Chapter Five: “Francie felt that Sissy understood how it was with little girls. Other people treated children like loveable but necessary evils. Sissy treated them like important human beings.” I can relate to this. Kids are amazing but sometimes, as a parent…it can get so “stale” to continue engaging and caring for them day after day after day. I so appreciate the perspective of fresh eyes and minds when others take over and I have fond memories of my own from childhood of being around people who I knew just LOVED kids (most of them, admittedly, didn’t have children of their own, or their children were grown).
I've been really pondering that Quindlen quote, too, since I have that foreword in my book, too. I think what's so right about this book is that in its specificity about the experience of the Nolan family, it manages to be universal. I didn't grow up in Brooklyn with an alcoholic father and an aunt who worked in a condom factory, but I did grow up with a neglectful father and an aunt who adored me, but was frequently not in contact with my parents. There's universality in the specifics that make this book really resonate with all types of readers.
DeleteI highlighted that quote in chapter five too. I must admit I'm feel more like the first part of the quote. OOPS.
DeleteHa, Melissa, I'm definitely the "loveable but necessary evil" side of things!
DeleteI have read this book before, but I honestly don't remember when, and the only thing I remember about it is that I really liked it a lot, so I was glad when you came up with this idea. Thank you! I especially do not remember the antisemitism or abuse (the extra penny from the junk dealer if you let him pinch your cheek, or the other guy...UGH!), so that has been hard. We grew up broke much of the time, but not THIS kind of broke. I feel positively rich in comparison.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your questions:
1. I am reading a physical copy that I bought specifically for this book club. I used to have a copy, but we did a HORRIBLE thing back in 2007. We tried to sell our condo (right when the economy collapsed), and part of that was taking out our custom (cheaply made, starting to fall apart) bookshelf, and when we gave up the idea of selling (thank goodness, because we were both laid off in 2008 or 2009, and could not have afforded a new mortgage), we ended up purging a lot of books. Somehow ATGIB didn't make the cut. Or else I have another copy of it laying around here somewhere, which is at least possible. I do remember my mom loving it and talking about it with her after I read it.
2. We used to take soda bottles to the store also, they were 10 cents each. If you had 3 6-packs of empty bottles, you could buy a new 6-pack. We had an allowance, I remember it being 75 cents a week. I used to take it and go to the restaurant where my mom worked and get something called a 'European Iced Chocolate', which was chocolate milk with a scoop of chocolate ice cream, and whipped cream on top. Man I loved those things. They were 50 cents, and I had to leave a 25 cent tip. When I was a little older, I used to fold to-go boxes at a local pizza place, in exchange for pizza to take home. A little older than that, I cleaned out stalls at a local stable where they rented horses to ride, in exchange for free rides. My first W-2 type paying job was at a local steak house, when I was 16. I've worked ever since, except when I was on maternity leave (unpaid, thank you Pennsylvania) or unemployed (paid, thank you California unemployment insurance).
3. I can only dream of looking as glamorous as my darling boy Mulder, or our last dog Genevieve.
4. If I were the librarian, I think I would recommend 'The Phantom Tollbooth' and 'From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler', though of course 'Little Women' and 'ATGIB' are always amazing. And the Narnia and Little House books.
5. No divide that I know of in our neighborhood. Perhaps I am clueless? It would probably be around political parties.
(no 6?)
7. What is different for me now? Since I can't remember reading it before, I can't say. I will say that I love the poignancy of Francie being allowed to pour out her coffee - WITH MILK! I'm not sure I would have been allowed to do that, perhaps were weren't quite broke enough to get that mindset. For some reason that scene reminded me of conversations that people sometimes have about how those on welfare/food stamps choose to spend their money. Like it is a sin for them to buy steak with their food stamps, because I can't afford steak myself. Having been on food stamps a few times as a child, I will tell you that if we ever spent it on something expensive, it was for a birthday, and that was the ONLY time we would have had such an extravagance, and goodness, whose business is it if we choose to have a cake or something once in a blue moon? No one could pinch a penny like my mom, and yes, she would splurge occasionally. And the idea of the umbrellas and wanting to collect items...that was my mom too.
P.S. - I loved how excited Francie was to get the other library book on Saturday! As a re-reader, esp when I was a kid, that spoke to me.
DeleteHa ha forever that there's no #6! I think I took out a question about how aware you were of sexual harassment when you were Francie's age and then decided against it because I thought it was covered in #7. I'm a great editor.
DeleteI think From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler is a GREAT pick. I tried to read Little Women again and was *shocked* at how preachy and moralizing I thought it was. I had the same reaction to rereading the Anne books as an adult. I wonder what that says about how carefully I was or wasn't reading things as a child!
I am so excited for this read-along! I even got my Mom to request the (translated German) copy from the library and I am excited to share thoughts with her too! BTW, I'd be curious about the "Frikadellen" joke reference in the German translation! That might be one of the things that gets "lost in translation" - haha. I think personally think the joke is that it starts with "fric-" and anything resembling a swear word is funny to kids!
ReplyDelete1. I have not read this book as a kid (kinda obvious), but read it for the first time in 2017. I gave it 5 stars. I thought it was so well written. I still might miss some references (as English is not my native language) though.
2. I got a very small allowance as a kid and I practically saved it all - so I didn't really try to make money until I was older. I think my first "job" was babysitting the neighbor's kids when I was 11.
3. I would agree that you look more like Hannah, although you have pretty eyes like Zelda, too :)
4. Well, it's hard for me to make recommendations for kids' books as I am more familiar with German books for that age range. I enjoyed two books (series) when I was that age: one was about a set of twins who went to boarding school and got into all kinds of shenanigans (since my sister and I are twins, it was highly relatable, ha!) and another book about a girl and her foster horse (I was into horses at the time).
5. I have no idea about religious affiliations in our neighborhood.
As others said before, I loved the part about the coffee as a little luxury in an otherwise pretty "miserable" existence - and that even the kids were poured a cup, even if they only enjoyed the smell and warmth and the coffee was poured down the drain later. Katie Nolan understood to give her kids something to waste, even though she hardly could afford (stale) bread to feed them.
I also loved that Francie had her own little Saturday ritual and how she dragged things out and savored every moment of this special day of the week. How she saved her "earned" money and contemplated what she was going to buy with it, how she "enjoyed" picking out the books at the library and then going home to settle on her spot on the fire-escape, putting out her pillow just so and arranging her bowl with candy. I had such a vivid image of this in my mind (although I still can't clearly picture Francie, as her physical description has been very "limited").
The part about Sissy's 9 dead children really shocked me (again) when I read it. Unimaginable to think that this might have been somewhat common at the time.
This line was interesting to me, too. "Flossie Gaddis was starved about men and Sissy was healthily hungry about them. And what a difference that made". (chapter 2) I've kept thinking what exactly was meant by that... I mean, we all know "examples" of both types of women in our own time, am I right?
I'm glad you chimed in on the frikadellen "joke."
DeleteI think a couple of themes that have come out of this discussion are how much the throwing away of the coffee scene and that comparison of Sissy v. Flossie really resonated with everyone. So interesting what will leave the biggest impression on us!
P.S. Thank you for posting the map, Engie! I actually looked up Williamsburg on the map, too (what can I say, I am a geographer - I like looking at maps!)
ReplyDeleteI just couldn't really figure out how much a radius that the Nolan kids could go, so I needed to visualize it! I thought you'd like it. I wish I could find a map that had ATGIB landmarks listed on it. Maybe I'll dig deeper in a future week.
DeleteI'm so excited for this book club! It's been so fun reading the comments and seeing what parts of the chapters jumped out to people. I was most struck by Flossie - she's who I focused on the most over any of the other characters. 10 dead babies. I can't imagine! It's interesting to see Flossie through the eyes of Francie.
ReplyDeleteI loved the library scene with Francie. What a fun goal to read through the entire library alphabetically. (Could not be me!!!) I wish she had a better librarian, wah!
1. I have read the book once before and it was just in 2018. It was not a book I would have picked up as a kid - I was much more into general series fiction like The Baby-Sitter's Club, Sweet Valley High, etc. This would have felt too "literary" for me. I'm currently reading a print version.
2. The first job I had when I earned money was when I was 12 and I helped out at the preschool my mom worked at. My brother and I would clean/sanitize all the toys, clean/sanitize the chairs, etc.
3. I don't think I look like my cats?!
4. Hmm... definitely Anne of Green Gables. And maybe A Place to Hang the Moon?
5. I have no idea!
7. This reread doesn't feel as different for me, as I read it for the first time just 5 years ago. But it's interesting to see what things pop out for other people, especially those that read it as a child or many years ago and are just doing their first reread now!
Sweet Valley High and Babysitter's Club! Blast from the past. I was SO into both of these series and basically forgot all about them until you mentioned them, Stephany!!
DeleteI was *shocked* at how moralistic I thought Anne of Green Gables was when I did a reread as an adult. But I think I might still recommend it to an 11/12 yo. Maybe Black Beauty, too? I think the what would you recommend question is so interesting and I'd like to collect these responses and then consult an actual tween about if they've read any of them!
Delete1. I am reading this book for the first time. I have a physical copy.
ReplyDelete2. I was a somewhat spoiled middle-class child. I didn't get an allowance and I didn't do anything like finding pop cans / soda bottles, but my parents and siblings did it on occasion. What I do remember was moving from apartment to apartment, and we were always paying bills on the shut-off date because my parents were terrible with money, but I didn't really notice those things until I was older because they (somewhat stupidly) gave us all the things we ever asked for.
3. I've seen pictures of people who look like their pets, but have never thought it in real life. The closest was a my aunt's sheepdog whose matted gray hair resembled my aunt's wiry gray mane. You and Hannah have similar eyes.
4. When I was eleven, my sixth-grade book report was on The Shining. So I'm not the best to ask this question, though I vaguely remember a fondness for The Dark Is Rising. And Choose Your Own Adventure books. And maybe The Sleepover Friends. Bridge to Terabithia?
5. I agree the divide now is politics rather than religion, though a lot of politics is divided now by people who call themselves a certain religion.
6. Since this is my first read, I'll answer this question in a different way. Sissy reminded me of one of my favorite short stories, "River of Names" by Dorothy Allison, about why (particularly southern) women just kept having babies. My mother had ten pregnancies and lost six of them. Both of my parents come from twelve siblings. I have sixty-three cousins because for every baby my aunts lost they tried and tried again.
Everything in these first chapters is really about loss and the ways the characters perptually overcome it. They have so little but from this they create moments of happiness. They keep living - just like the old man, "'He wants to keep on living even though he's so old and there's nothing to be happy about anymore'" (page 14). I guess, to put it another way, the characters are happy with a feeling they can create from nothing. There's a feeling they're going to keep losing, so they have to keep creating. That's my first impression so far. It of course gives me hope for what Francie finds herself becoming later in the book - overcoming her circumstances even in the smallest ways.
Lines of note:
"Flossie was always running after men and they were always running away from her. Francie's aunt Sissy ran after men, too. But somehow they ran to meet her halfway. The difference was that Flossie Gaddis was starved about men and Sissy was healthily hungry about them. And what a difference made" (page 28).
Also, I loved the passage about the boy holding his caterpillar funerals and the fact that Johnny's union pride seems pretty relevant in today's political landscape.
Some of my words I tried to emphasize got deleted, I see.
DeleteThey (these characters) can create SOMETHING from nothing.
(about Flossie vs. Sissy) "And what a difference THAT made."
I am THRILLED that there are so many first-time readers. You and Suz will be able to provide us with so much insight as to whether or not this is the perfect book the rest of us think it is!
DeleteOoooh!!! Choose Your Own Adventure books! I was definitely reading those at that age. I also read a fantasy series that was like CYA, but as you went along you collected items like swords, clothing, etc., and then your choices were limited by what items you had. It was like a prototype Final Fantasy video game. Does anyone know what these books were called?
What great comments! Sorry I got to bookclub so late!
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome ANYTIME. I think people will probably come back to check out the discussion, so it's great if you chime in a little bit later in the week!
DeleteMy favorite memory of ATGIB was how it validated my own bookworm tendencies as a kid and even made it aspirational. Every time I catch myself reading in the afternoon sun, I think of Francie. Jane Eyre, whom we first meet reading behind the curtain, was another great childhood reading hero.
ReplyDeleteYES! A friend just texted me "I definitely understand why it meant so much to you" and that's it exactly - it validated my own bookworm tendencies! It worked out for Francie - it should work out for me!
DeleteEee, I'm so late, and there are so many comments already. I'm not going to panic, this is supposed to be fun.
ReplyDeleteI first read the book for the first time in 2016 - can't believe it took me so long. I knew I needed to read it again, because I always miss a lot the first time, even if I love a book. I love the idea of going a few chapters at a time.
I love how you look up stuff - I look up words I don't know, and sometimes other stuff, but a lot of times I mean to and then forget, or I know if I stop reading to look up something it will be hard to get my focus back.
I LOVED the description of Francie reading, and her sun-warmed, wind-freshened pillow. I actually didn't find the shadows moving ominous, I thought it was just the slow passing of the afternoon into early evening.
When I was growing up, my dad had to come pick me up at the library and tell the librarian it was okay for me to take out the books she thought were too 'advanced' for me.
The surly librarian I found both amusing and kind of sad - so much potential for a better relationship with an eager 11-year-old. Two books I would recommend? Uhhhhhh, going to be way too easy to overthink this so I'm going to underthink it - Far Far Away by Tom McNeal and A Wrinkle in Time/When You Reach Me.
The father reminded me of the father in this terrible book we read for book club, The Man Who Loved Children, except he's a little more self-aware, not that it helps that much.
I don't think I look anything like Lucy. We had a ginger cat that I resembled more - green eyes, reddish (fake) hair, sort of an asshole.
I am reading the physical copy I bought the first time I read it - I think we were going to show photos, but I'm not sure how to do that here.
No! You're not late! Just post when you have time! No panic! Book club is FUN and OPTIONAL and there's NO STRESS. (Except when I respond in all caps, I guess.)
DeleteHey, can we talk about A Wrinkle in Time? Full confession: I read it as a child and didn't "get" it and I read it again in 2018 and didn't get it. What's it about? Why didn't I understand anything about it? Love? Is the answer? I am confuzzled and hesitate to recommend it to anyone, child or not, for fear of making them feel as stupid as I feel about that book.
Please send a photo of your book to me! dominique100 at hotmail dot com. I'm cool, yo. I've got a hotmail account.
- 1. This is the first time I've heard of this book, let alone read it. Most likely because I'm Australian, but I'm going to NYC in November and I've got the tenement museum (Lower East Side though I think) on my list of things to do, so this is an interesting read for me to do now. I'm reading the Kindle edition.
ReplyDelete- 2. We would go into my dads work over the school holidays and print plans. He worked for a building company and when they were pricing new jobs they needed multiple copies of each drawing for the subbies to price so there was plenty of work. We used a whiteprint copier which are obsolete now
- 3. I don't think I look like my dog. He has a lot of thick, wavy fur, I have medium length fine, thin hair. I wish my hair was closer in colour to his golden locks!
- 4. One book which is an Australian classic and is one I still remember reading "Playing Beattie Bow." Second would be a series which was one of my kids favourite. 'The Deltora Quest.'
- 5. Funnily enough we live adjacent to an area where many Orthodox Jews settled in Melbourne and they are a pretty visible community in the area, and there is still some issues of racism, but I think for the most part people son't tend to be too concerned about religious or other differences.
- 7. This is my first read, but I found the oblique way these issues are referenced interesting, but this makes sense, I guess, as it's Francie's point of view, and she wouldn't have necessarily had the tools to understand everything about these experiences. I presume at this time, they wouldn't have been discussed much if at all. I also found her rose-coloured glasses perspective really refreshing and innocent. She seemed to view others in an overwhelmingly positive way in spite of what they were actually like.
I'm so excited for first time readers to chime in. I know I love this book, but maybe it doesn't hold up if you don't have super fond memories of it from childhood! I would also love it if you updated me on if you found this useful as background for your NYC trip.
DeleteI really wish I was as beautiful as either of my pets! LOL. You talking about how you wish you had hair as nice as your dog's fur made me think of this. I'll never measure up to their beauty!
VERY interesting point about how some of the writing is oblique, but it does make sense that it's because Francie is a narrator who doesn't really fully understand everything happening around her. She's not really an unreliable narrator, but more of a narrator with a narrow perspective.
OMG so many thoughts. SO MANY. And so many fantastic comments, already. I am late to the game but hopefully no less enthusiastic.
ReplyDelete1. I have read it before, and oh, it was one of my favorites as a child/teen. This morning, when I told my parents that I was participating in an online book club about ATGIB, they both *immediately* said, "Ohhh..." in that tone of voice that showed they remembered just how much I love this book. <3 I haven't reread it in AGES, though. The best part for me, so far, is remembering the text as I read it. It unfolds like a familiar friend. <3
2. At 10 or 11, I was only getting an allowance. Not even sure how much - somewhere between $1-5/month. I started earning money when I started babysitting (and oh, how I hated it...), mowing the lawn (big lawn, $20/mow!), and doing other gardening chores (aka, mulching and weeding) for my dad. :)
3. I think you look like Hannah, as well. Something in your profile. I don't know anyone who REALLY looks like their pet, though!
4. This, for sure. Anne of Green Gables (saw your comments, and I think I read it through a nostalgic lens that removes some of that... goodytwoshoes-ness?), perhaps. The Dark is Rising and Wrinkle in Time series, for sure. Girl of the Limberlost. Want me to go on? ;)
5. Just the politics, like for everyone else. Sigh.
7. On reread, what is standing out to me is how vivid the imagery is. I really feel like I am transported to Brooklyn, seeing it through Francie's eyes. I know more know, so picturing what it means to die of consumption is a much starker image than it was for me as a child. I wonder about what the people in the book would be like 20 years after the time of the book (note: I don't yet remember just how far into the future we go...)
There are so many quotes that stand out for me - many of them highlighted by others, but I LOVE the ones in chapter 2 about books.
"But Francie was a reader. She read everything she could find: trash, classics, time tables, and the grocer's price list."
THIS IS ME. I read anything and everything. I am rarely on social media on my phone (e.g., FB, IG) because I am reading one of two papers, or a book, or something else. I read cereal boxes as a kid. Flyers, ads, ANYTHING!
"Yes, when I get big and have my own home, no plush chairs and lace curtains for me. And no rubber plants. I'll have a desk like this in my parlor and white walls and a clean green blotter every Saturday night and a row of shining yellow pencils always sharpened for writing and a golden-brown bowl with a flower or some leaves or berries always in it and books . . . books . . . books. . . ."
Oh, Francie. I want that, too, for you. <3
Ha ha! Now I'm looking at my nose and Hannah's nose and checking out the similarities.
DeleteI'm loving everyone sharing their quotes. It's really so much fun to see what resonates with everyone and hear about WHY. Close reading for the win. I loved that quote about reading everything, too. I definitely will read things like the shampoo bottle if I'm stuck somewhere without reading material.
Hello! Late as usual.
ReplyDelete1. I'm reading a used physical copy which I bought for this read-along. I think I read it twenty years ago when I lived in Austin, TX before I became a mother, but was married. I remember finishing it, but I didn't feel like it was one of my very favorites - but I know myself well and it just might not have been the right moment for me and the book.
2. I was quite sheltered and I'm naturally introverted as a child and I spent a lot of time in my house reading books and doing homework or daydreaming on my own. I also did not often ask or want many things so I didn't find money a necessary thing.
3. My beloved pets are always much more beautiful than me.
4. Books for an 11 year old? Hmmm. I loved the EB White books, though I think they might be a little bit young. I loved the Secret Garden & a little princess. Little women, Where the red fern grows, Alice in Wonderland, Harry Potter. All those shoe stories. I think I'm a little stuck in time! I would not recommend the Hunger Games which always seemed so upsetting to me.
5. Ahh, we are so divided!
6. I'm hoping to read it through everyone else's eyes. Obvs, I didn't *love* it before, but I'm hoping to love it more now when there is more discussion - so a more careful reading this time.
Thank you for this little book club!! <3
You're not late! You're right on time!
DeleteI think you're right that Frances Hodgson Burnett is how I would go with recommendations for an 11yo, too. The Secret Garden and A Little Princess are beloved books to me. What do you mean by "all those shoe stories"? - this is intriguing to me and I don't know what you mean!
I think we should all just admit that our pets are better looking than we are - it's definitely the way of the world.
Engie, I almost can't believe you haven't heard of the shoe stories! Oh, I loved those too - and if you loved Frances Hodgson Burnett, I bet you would have loved these. Noel Streatfeild (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Streatfeild) wrote books about British girls and their... well, the theme seemed to be grit and perseverance, for lack of a better phrase? Apparently there was only one "shoes" book (Ballet Shoes) but some of her subsequent books had the titles altered to capitalize on the popularity of that one. Huh. Things I did not know! And sorry sorry sorry for the long comment, but oh, that comment took me back. Thanks, Doris! :)
DeleteBallet Shoes is my favorite! :) I'll bring up the rear in the book club, I haven't started on the next chapters yet! Hopefully this weekend. I keep misplacing my book and having to hunt around for it.
DeleteI've never heard of these Streatfeild books! I just placed Ballet Shoes on hold at the library. I'm so excited since there was a comparison to Burnett!
DeleteI am just catching up on my blog reading and then I come across this online book club reading just when I started reading ATGIB – for the first time. That gotta mean I have to jump in an join. I am almost on track too.
ReplyDeleteI find the Chapter 2 quote actually rather peaceful and tranquil. Its like the atmosphere of sinking into a book not realizing how time passes. Interesting that there are such different perceptions.
Also, I didn't get the condom reference either. Thank you for making that clear.
I am admittedly late to the party, but ATGIB came up on my Libby app so I started listening to it. Was nobody else troubled by the anti-semitism in the early chapters? The boys, including Neely, terrorize a Jewish boy ('the Jew boy. Also Jew bread') and it is accepted as completely normal. I found it creepy.
ReplyDeleteJust wait until the treatment of the Germans when the war starts... :(
Delete