Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 6-10. Let's dive in!
Week one discussion: Chapters 1 - 5
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Synopsis: Chapter 6 finishes Book One with more scenes from the neighborhood from Francie's POV. Then in Book Two, we spend time flashing back to the family histories of Katie and Johnny. Katie and Johnny got together when Katie stole Johnny away from her best friend Hildy O'Dair. Katie's father was an angry man, her mother was a saint, and they had four daughters: Sissy (so many dead babies), Katie, Eliza (a nun), and Evy. Johnny had three brothers, but all of them died young. By the end of chapter ten, Johnny and Katie have gotten married and had Francie and Neely. Johnny's work is inconsistent (he's useless), and Katie knows she's going to have support this family.
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 7: He wore a high stiff collar and a polka-dotted tie (which matched the band on his straw hat), baby-blue sleeve garters of satin ribbon shirred on to elastic, which Katie jealously suspected Hildy had made for him. So jealous was she that for the rest of her life she hated that color. (page 58)
Ha ha! Isn't it funny how this stuff sticks with you?
Chapter 8: She was the books she read in the library. She was the flower in the brown bowl. Part of her life was made from the tree growing rankly in the yard. She was the bitter quarrels she had with her brother whom she loved dearly. She was Katie's secret, despairing weeping. She was the shame of her father staggering home drunk. (page 72-73)
I just loved this. Sure, Francie is part of both the Rommely and Nolan families, but she's her own person because of her own interests and experiences. It's also so desperately sad.
Chapter 9: Then the real truth came to her. "I mean," she thought, "that I can work. I can't count on Johnny. I'll always have to look after him. Oh, God, don't send me any more children or I won't be able to look after Johnny and I've got to look after Johnny. He can't look after himself." (page 81-82)
In this reading of the book, Katie is the true heroine of the story for me. Katie made a bad choice about the wrong guy, but she's going to get through it. She should've left Hildy have him.
Chapter 10: Katie had the same hardships as Johnny and she was nineteen, two years younger. It might be said that she, too, was doomed. Her life, too, was over before it began. But there the similarity ended. Johnny knew he was doomed and accepted it. Katie wouldn't accept it. She started a new life where the old one left off. (page 97)
Katie = protagonist of this story (in my reading).
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
His high silk hat was tipped over an ear. (page 53)
The stiff ocean breeze blew the hats off and there was much laughter...(page57-58)
She rushed down on them pulling her long hatpin from her sailor hat. (page 60)
...Paul Jones said that he had never been asked to take anything off but his hat when he went for a lesson. (page 68)
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1. Francie and Neely read a page from the Bible and Shakespeare's Complete Works every night before bed. We see how this lovely tradition got started in these chapters. Do you or your family have a nightly routine/tradition like this? How did it come about?
2. Can we just talk about Sissy? She just randomly calls all the men she dates/marries John and gets married multiple times without getting divorced? What's your take on Sissy? Do you think she's secretly in love with Johnny? Or is there something else happening here?
3. More weird sexual misconduct in the neighborhood with Professor Allegretto making his girl pupils take off their shoes and stocking to stare at their feet. What is going on in this neighborhood with the small business owners?
4. Seriously minor question that indicates I truly don't remember much of this book. Johnny's brother Andy dies of consumption, Frankie dies after he falls in a drunken accident and a stick stabs his stomach (!), but there's no explanation of how Georgie died, is there? Did I miss it, is it still to come, or will this remain a mystery for me for all time?
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
July 24 (Chapters 11 - 18)
July 31 (Chapters 19 - 26)
August 7 (Chapters 27 - 32)
August 14 (Chapters 33 - 37)
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
Betty Smith thinks we should all buy war bonds!
Oh WOW, I love the details Birchie shared! So fun. And how neat to see all our books! Thanks for putting those collages together, Engie. This is the best book club I've ever been part of. I loved that quote you pulled about Francie being an amalgam of all the things in her life. So beautiful and so terribly sad.
ReplyDelete1. I love the tradition Francie and Neely have, and I love that it’s so important to their grandmother and that she sees reading as the key that unlocks the prison of poverty. And Shakespeare and the Bible. I loved the whole story of how Sissy (I think?) scared up a copy of each, and Katie’s mother’s insistence on the Protestant Bible. We have no such tradition in my family, although my parents read to me most nights before bed for a long, long time and my husband and I do so with our daughter.
2. Oh Sissy. I think she is so fixated on a baby that her want has infused her entire life. Do you think she has always been in love with Johnny, and that’s where the “John” comes from? I didn’t pick up on any indication that she’s in love with Johnny (although I cannot remember how it plays out), but I 100% think she would make a baby with him if she thought the baby would live. I love her spirit, her insistence to keep going despite being unable to have that one thing she wants the most, and her dedication to helping her sister’s family.
3. Ew, the foot thing. Is this the thing everyone was warning me about, when I planned to read it to my daughter? Or are there worse things to come? There certainly seems to be danger around every corner in Brooklyn, though. And such a mix of good and awful.
4. I don’t remember reading how Georgie died, either. But I loved Johnny’s origin story. Seems to be a testament to Katie’s strength of character that Johnny lives so much longer than his brothers. The whole story of the swansdown pillow seems so emblematic of Johnny -- beautiful on the outside, but irreparably damaged. Also, I know it was a luxury item but... gross.
Quotes:
P. 47 - “Maudie, who lived a less complicated life, had had fewer sins to confess and had gotten out sooner.” This was in the section where Francie was going to confession and it gave me pause. What kinds of sins is Francie guilty of? Misleading the butcher into giving her the cut of meat her mother wants? Peeking at the neighbors through their windows? Or is it about the sins she is forced into because of her father – like eating the leftover food her father brought home from the wedding he worked even though she didn’t like the food and wouldn’t be able to take communion the next day?
P. 61 - “She wept when they [her children] gave birth to daughters, knowing that to be born a woman meant a life of humble hardship.” Oh this hurt my heart.
P. 82 - “Because,“ explained Mary Rommely simply, “the child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that she believe. She must start out by believing in things not of this world. Then when the world becomes too ugly for living in pit, the child can reach back and live in her imagination. I, myself, even in this day, and at my age, have a great need of recalling the miraculous lives of the Saints and the great miracles that have come to pass on earth. Only by having these things in my mind, can I live beyond what I have to live for.“ I loved this so much.
P. 92-93 - “Don’t say that,“ Katie held her baby tightly. “It’s not better to die. Who wants to die? Everything struggles to live. Look at that tree growing up there out of that grating. It gets no sun, and water only when it rains. It’s growing out of a sour earth. And it’s strong because its hard struggle to live is making it strong. My children will be strong that way. “ <3 <3 <3
Words I Had to Look Up:
P. 51 - Plug hat - tall or rounded hat with a stiff brim (it’s a hat, Engie!)
P. 62 - Hoyden - boisterous
P. 76 - carbolic acid - disinfectant
P. 97 - dockle - (no clear definition) dull or clumsy person
I loved/flagged all those same quotes, Suzanne!
DeleteThat last quote from Katie really got me! It was such a good one.
DeleteOoohhh...I never even questioned what sins Francie was confessing to. What is she telling that priest? Such a great observation!
DeleteOh, poor Katie. Of course she made a poor choice- because she was 17!!! If I had chosen a husband at the age of 17 it would have been a fiasco. What a hard life.
ReplyDeleteI loved Mary Rommely's advice that the children should believe in magical things like fairies and Santa. I always felt the same way with my kids! I know some parents who didn't feel comfortable "lying" about Santa and the tooth fairy, but I wanted them to believe in magic as long as possible. Interesting that her advice included something as concrete as reading Shakespeare and the bible as well.
I don't remember anything about how Georgie died, and I don't have my book in front of me. I didn't even notice that omission. Maybe it will come out later, although it doesn't seem like a topic that will be revisited.
I sent you my photo too late to be included in the collage, but it looks like you and I have the same copy of the book anyway!
Same, Jenny! I never once thought my mom was a liar because she let me believe in Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy/Easter Bunny/etc. I loved that advice, too.
DeleteOh, when I found out about Santa Claus was when I started distrusting my parents. They never regained that trust! I think it really depends on the child and you should know enough about your own child as they're growing up whether or not to tell the truth.
DeleteI'm with you, Jenny! If I'd made a decision about a husband when I was 17, my life would have been extremely hard.
I loved that advice, too Jenny! Mary Rommely has such wisdom about the importance of imagination.
DeleteI love Birchie's additions; so very cool.
ReplyDeleteWhat a brilliant idea for adding photos of everyones book. You are the Queen of the Book Club!
But, what's with all the Engie? Is that a previous nickname/blog name?
1) I created a tradition of reading to our girls each night from age six months until they were in about 7th-8th grade. It was just a routine and we all enjoyed it; still one of the best memories from their childhood. I don’t remember anyone reading to me as a kid, but my Mom said she did.
2)Poor, poor Sissy. She has Daddy issues! I don’t think she loves Katie’s Johnny, but she feels better about herself if she can covet all the men.
3)Weirdos/perverts are out there and this book is highlighting them.
4)I’m wondering about Georgie as well. I was thinking the answer will come later?
What I had to look up was the word caul. “The only notable thing about the birth was that the infant was born with a caul, which is supposed to indicate that the child was set apart to do great things in the world”
Wasn’t that midwife a piece of work? A scammer for sure!
I just found it incredibly sad that there was little hope for the future for most of the characters; they were destined to be poor and hungry.
N Grad Student comes out as NGS when she comments on our blogs, so Nicole put the N and G together and started calling her Engie, which I thought was super cute so I stole it :)
DeleteI had to look up caul, too!
DeleteAND THE MIDWIFE. Argh!
This blog was originally called Neurotic Grad Student, when I was in grad school LO THOSE MANY YEARS AGO, so I went by NGS and, as Allison said above, Nicole let it slip that she thinks of me as Engie from En-Gee, and here we are. Sorry I don't have that explained anywhere since it is quite confusing if you're relatively new here. I'll add something to my sidebar to prevent confusion!
DeleteI completely understand...it's an inside joke, or inside nickname and it does make sense. Thanks for clarifying.
DeleteGlad I wasn't the only one who didn't know Caul and that midwife should have been locked up.
YES, the midwife! I laughed at how long it took her to get ready though. She knows first babies don't come quickly.
DeleteI love your summary of characters; Johnny (he’s useless). This made me laugh out loud! Yet, Francie adores him…
ReplyDelete- No nightly routine for us anymore. When the kids were little I feel like things were far more regimented; books, certain songs. Now, they’re often still awake AFTER I’m asleep…
Chapter 6: [Re: Neely coming along to the butcher shop]: “His function was to come along for moral support.” Interesting that a male figure was the moral support while Francie had to do the grunt work; Katie functions as both the main breadwinner AND the moral support for Johnny and the family.
“I love you, Will,” Evy assured him in her soft tender voice that was a caress in itself.” How I wish I had a voice that was a “caress” in itself!
“The Nolans just couldn’t get enough of life. They lived their own lives up to the hilt but that wasn’t enough. They had to fill in on the lives of all the people they made contact with.” Is this why people love reality TV so much?
“So Johnny and Katie talked away the night and the rise and fall of their voices was a safe and soothing sound in the dark.” I remember falling asleep listening to my parents/siblings talk in the living room – I loved how safe I felt.
“Francie was glad for Saturday and hated to end it by going to sleep. Already the dread of the week to come made her uneasy.” I can so relate.
Chapter 7:
[The baby-blue garters Hildy likely made for Johnny, leaving Katie jealous.] “So jealous was she that for the rest of her life she hated that colour.” I think this is such great writing; to hate a colour the rest of your life because of a love triangle in your teens. Fascinating.
“She’d ask nothing more than to look at him and to listen to him for the rest of her life. Then and there, she decided that those privileges were worth slaving for all her life.” And this is exactly what she ended up doing…
Chapter 9
I thought it was hilarious when the midwife’s dentures were frozen and had to be thawed before she could come to Katie.
Chapter 10: “She exchanged her tenderness for capability. She gave up her dreams and took over hard realities in their place.”
Ooh, Elisabeth - what an interesting comparison of Katie doing all the grunt work and so does Francie! I loved that scene between Francie and the butcher. I'd love to see if play out in a movie! Haha.
DeleteStephany, I think I'm going to watch the movie when we finish the book if I can track it down. I'd be super interested to know what makes the movie and what doesn't!
DeleteI hope you're able to track it down! I'd be soo curious what's included, too!
DeleteI'm a little behind because I had houseguests for Bluesfest, and fell asleep reading it last night, and I don't have the book beside me so I have no quotes. But.
ReplyDeleteI reread the last couple of chapters and I am obsessed with Sissy's dark, roving eyes, black curling hair and 'high clear colour'. I want to have a high, clear colour! I got no sense that she was in love with Johnny, but it is strange that she calls all her husbands John. And oh, all the dead babies.
I would have looked up 'straw katie', except it became immediately apparent that it was a hat. Katie hating the colour of the thing Hildy made also struck me, and reminded me that I didn't wear aqua blue for years after I broke up with a boyfriend who hated it, until I realized what I was doing and smacked myself figuratively.
Katie and Neely forcing themselves to eat the seafood even though they didn't like it because they were so hungry. All the mentions of hunger in the book remind me of how privileged I am, and how terrible it is that people are hungry.
I didn't catch how Georgie died either. The consumption is terrible, but even worse was the drunk brother who tripped on the wire someone used to preserve their tiny lawn and was pierced by a sharp stick. Such a dumb, sad, wasteful way to die.
"I didn't wear aqua blue for years after I broke up with a boyfriend who hated it" - Wow! Isn't it crazy how people get into our heads?!
DeleteI guess I'm going to be the one to bash on poor Katie. Perhaps I will forgive her, but right now I'm ticked off that she feels contempt and pity for our darling Francie!
ReplyDeleteChapter 10
"Without devious reasoning or complicated emotional processes, the boy became Katie's whole world. Johnny took second place and Francie went to the back of her mother's heart."
"Francie and Johnny would get by somehow, but she would take no chances with the boy. She'd see to it that he more than got by."
UGH. I mean, I admire that she works so hard for her family, and now we know why Francie doesn't feel a lot of warmth toward her mother, but I will admit to being pissed off at Katie right now.
I'm finding it very difficult to not forge ahead, but at the same time I am enjoying being right here in the same chapters as everyone else. I've not done many book clubs before, and generally they have been the type where you read the whole book and then discuss, which I do not like as much. Thank you for putting this together and hosting!
Ugh, Katie's contempt for sweet, darling Francie makes me so sad! I, too, am angry at Katie for not loving Francie for all she's worth!
DeleteYes, I 100% agree that Katie isn't perfect. Her parenting definitely lacks at some points. If I recall correctly, her preference for Neely doesn't get better. *sigh* But what would Francie become if it were just Johnny in charge?!
DeleteI think she just doesn't have any tenderness to waste and Francie doesn't need it.
DeleteI also was reminded at the beginning of the book that Katie is just 29 years old! Not that that excuses anything, but that is pretty young to be (a) the parent of two young children (b) poor working woman (c) married to a drunk happy go lucky pretty much useless jobless man.
DeleteI had similiar feelings when I read how Katie feels about her daughter. It seems unfair. But is it so uncommon I wonder? No one talks for sure...
DeleteThe scene between Francie and the butcher tickled me so much! Soooo good. Hehehe.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who thinks Sissy has the hots for Johnny? Or maybe she just likes annoying her sister. But I definitely got some weird vibes from her. And the way Katie stole Johnny from her best friend! WHAT. Come on, girl. Was he worth it?!
The word I had to look up in this section was caul. I did a Google image search and wish I hadn't. Oof.
1. My mom had a nightly routine of reading a Bible story from a children's book every night! The book we had was so beautiful, too, with gorgeous illustrations! I really love that Katie's mom thinks that teaching her children to read will help break the cycle of poverty. What an astute observation!
2. SISSY. She's been married so many times and never divorced! Oof. She's one of my favorite characters and I think she's got the hots for Johnny, but that's just me. Also, she got married for the first time at FOURTEEN. Oh goodness gracious.
3. Ewwww to weird men and their weird perversions.
4. I just reread the section and there's truly nothing about Georgie!
I am so confused about Sissy! What is even happening with her? I sort of think she maaaaybe has a thing for Johnny or maybe it's just a generic name that she uses so she doesn't have to think about what guy she's with? Although, if that's the case, why not use a name that's similarly generic, but not the same as her BIL? She's fascinating.
DeleteI took it that the most traumatic event in her life was the loss of her first baby, who she had decided would be John if it were a boy, and she hyperfixated on the name due to PTSD. It does say no one knew why she had decided on the name for the baby, but if she was only 14 Johnny would have been much younger, so the baby's name came first.
DeleteSorry, but I'm not feeling the love for Katie. She pushes an awful lot off onto her kids, especially her daughter. Yes, she has to work hard--and I'm sure long--hours, but she makes Francie do the unsavoury shopping that is rather humiliating. She knows her kids are hungry, and she accepts a loser husband who drinks up a lot of cash. It's true that they're Catholic, and the Church doesn't allow for divorce, but she gets precious little from this man to justify keeping him around. She didn't learn much from her mother in that vein. And her unabashed favouritism to her son is sad. Can't she see that she's setting Francie up for the same fate she's suffering?
ReplyDeleteSissy is like a hippie chick in the wrong decade. Free love and a free spirit and wild at heart. I think it's a bit much to assume her calling all her men John is because of Johnny Nolan.
As far as the perverts, I think it's reinforcing the idea that females have a much more perilous existence, an added struggle because of their sex (as Mary Rommely said). There's danger lurking in every innocent scenario, whether it's to get a few pennies from the junk man or to simply get a music lesson. (Of course, Katie used her femininity to steal her best friend's boyfriend when she faked having period cramps.)
I agree that Katie isn't perfect, that's for sure. I just feel like she made a terrible choice in choosing this man when she was young and now she's paying the price. She's not really a great mother, but she's doing her best and I really appreciate all the sacrifices she's making.
DeleteOkay, so why does she call all men John then and not some other name? Are there other people who call all men or all women the same name? I think this is a fascinating character trait!
Oh Katie. Doomed to love someone who only makes her life worse. Do you think she sees Neely as a Johnny 2.0? And loves him more because he needs more love? (Francie, who is strong, doesn't need Katie as much, so maybe Katie doesn't have to expend any of her limited resources on Francie?)
DeleteAnd Nance, I am so with you on the danger lurking in every scenario! Especially for women. The world is so precarious.
So far, I definitely think she sees Neeley as Johnny 2.0 - all the beauty but she's going to make sure he also has the brains.
Delete
ReplyDeleteI love seeing everyone's book copies. It looks like Harry is Team Vintage like me;-)
1. My parents read to me when I was little. Even after that occasionally we would read the same book so it was almost like family book club.
2. I love Sissy! Smith is such a good writer that she makes it all believable. In any other author's hands, I think the character would be a mess. What guy wouldn't want to be called John if that was the price of hanging out with her? In a pre-internet/pre-social security world, I think there were a lot of non-legal marriages and skipped divorces. I didn't get a vibe that she was after Johnny, it almost feels like a sibling rivalry thing.
Can we also talk about how well Smith builds up Francie, Katie, and Sissy? I started reading another book about a group of friends where the POV changes with each chapter. The problem is that all of the characters are identical so already I can't keep them straight. There's no chance of that happening with ATGIB.
I've been thinking about that last point you made a lot. I recently read As Bright as Heaven, a historical fiction book told from the POV of a mother and her daughters, and it was really hard at the beginning to figure out who was who from each chapter because the characters weren't distinct enough. I think that you're right about how well-developed each of these female characters are. You would never confuse an action Katie makes for something Sissy would do. It's the specificity of the writing that gives it so much sparkle.
DeleteI think you mean me-- mine's an original and was my grandma's-- I love reading it but I feel like have to be super careful.
DeleteDarn. I've fallen off on my rereading of ATGIB and missed the HW and all too. My physical copy is the same as Lisa's and sometimes I read on the Internet Archive on my computer: https://archive.org/stream/ATreeGrowsInBrooklynByBettySmith/A+Tree+Grows+In+Brooklyn+by+Betty+Smith_djvu.txt . The first time I read it, my copy looked like Sarah's. I think it's so cool that Sarah is the third-generation reader of that copy!
ReplyDeleteNo worries about being behind! Add in when you can. If you want to send me a photo of your book this week (or whenever!) I can add it to a collage with other people who sent it in later. dominique100 at hotmail dot com
Deletethanks for the reminder about this archive!! I didn't bring my book today, but I finally have time to read :)
DeleteDone!! Thank you!
Delete1. In my family of origin, for most of my young childhood, we had a routine of meeting as a family to pray together as a family. We would recite some prayers (our father, hail mary, angel of God, etc) and then we'd go around the room and say our prayers out loud. That tradition kind of fell by the wayside when my siblings were more involved in extracurriculars, etc. We tried to do it during the season of advent, though.
ReplyDeleteIn my family, our tradition is watching Wheel of Fortune as a family at 6:30. Then Phil and I switch off doing the boys' bedtime and we read books as part of bedtime (Will gets 4 since his books are mostly short board books; Paul usually gets 2).
2. I don't think Sissy is in love with Johnny, or I do not remember that plot point if she was, nor do I remember much in general. I think after losing all those babies, she is probably just trying to bury her feelings of grief by shifting from partner to partner. It's comical that she's avoiding the whole divorce process. So I guess in the eyes of the law she's a polygamist!
3. The foot thing is so very weird. There is a lot of abuse/odd behavior in this community!
4. I don't recall what happened to the other brother either. Maybe it's revealed with time?
Overall, I'm kind of stunned that this is sort of a middle grade book as it has such adult topics! I'm trying to envision 10 or 11yo me reading about all the still born babies!! :( I guess any age can read it, but you'd miss a lot as a younger reader.
I love that you and your family watch The Wheel before bed! I have fond memories of The Wheel followed by Jeopardy! right before we took baths and went to bed when I was young. Crazy that those game shows have had such staying power for multiple generations!
DeleteI think I've definitely learned that either kids were a lot more aware and mature in the past or our brains just allowed us to gloss over the nastier bits of books! I mean, crazy that this is what a middle grade book would be! Now I'm sort of horrified I gave it to a newly minted teen!
GAH this was SO SAD. **shakes fist at Johnny** **shakes other fist at PATRIARCHY**
ReplyDeleteThe line that made me cry was this one-- Katie's thoughts right after they had Francie, a time when she should be thinking of a new baby who is a world of possibility: “We can't be any more than we are this day.”
1. We always read bedtime stories but nothing regimented. As a kid, I was bothered by their tradition because I really dislike Shakespeare, and he’s so hard to understand. How did they find enjoyment? Are Americans stupider now than we used to be?
2. The John thing happened before Katie and Johnny, so no. I think she really wants to be a mom and the guy could be any John, you know?
3. Such a fact of life for these girls to be treated badly by men– dovetails nicely with Mary’s life experience, too, and Katie’s feelings about Francie and the hopelessness of her existence. SO SAD AND BLEAK.
4. I think we never hear about the Nolan boys again. The satin pillow stayed with me FOREVER though.
"Are Americans studpider now than we used to be" -- hahaha! But I also thought that the choices were VERY DIFFICULT, especially because (I'm guessing, here, although maybe I am remembering a line from the story that implied this?) Katie doesn't really understand the texts she's reading from. I think that's so moving, though, that a) her mother would advise reading these texts that she is not capable of reading, and b) that Katie would forge ahead even if she and her children have no idea what they are reading. I think it speaks to such a faith in the power of the written word.
DeleteTHAT SATIN PILLOW WILL HAUNT ME.
Interesting about the satin pillow. That didn't touch a nerve with me, but poor Henny Gaddis dying of TB has always been something I've thought about. Brains are SO WEIRD.
DeleteI think both the Bible and Shakespeare are hard to understand. Maybe since Francie and Neely grew up hearing it, they just figured it out? They are weird choices, to be sure.
1. My family has no traditions. Thinking about it, I don't think we even have holiday traditions.
ReplyDelete2. Sissy is my absolute favorite character in this book. She is charming, confident, and tragically relatable. She seems to be a woman ahead of her time. Her obsession with having a baby rips my heart out. I understand her deeply.
(On a personal note - I have a relative who grew up fast and who, at the age of twelve, dated a boy of seventeen. He never knew her real age. Recently this now man attended my brother's funeral and asked how old my brother had been, then became very confused as he knew this relative was only a year older than my brother. This relative is also SO LIKE SISSY.)
3. I think the strange sexual behavior is meant to show how often the little odd things we might at first push to the backs of our minds - it's just a barefoot kid - actually has greater implications. They are such seemingly normal things but are also very much not normal things.
4. So far I assume we might get a flashback of how Georgie dies. But it feels like maybe not from all of the comments.
I loved the description of Katie's outfit when she meets Johnny and they realize they are in love! Her outfit is beautiful but Hildy's is "a mud-colored brown suit and a black sailor skewered on to her ratted brassy pompadour with an evil-looking hatpin." Such juxtaposition. Page 57.
Also I want more Uncle Flittman vs. Drummer shenanigans.
One of my favorite little things I've noticed are just -slight- shifts in POV in the chapters that are supposed to be mainly Francie's POV. For instance, in this set of chapters, while Francie is at the butcher's: "Tricked again, he thought bitterly." (Page 45). This happened a few times in the first chapters too, namely: "Pipe dreams, he thought to himself, even while he was telling her about his dream winnings. But oh, how wonderful, he thought, if everything you talked about could come true!" (Page 34). In most of these beginning chapters, everything is described in a way that while it's omniscient narration it is mostly descriptions drawn from Francie's experiences. But in these passages it is actual thought. It's interesting to think why Smith includes these few moments where we are allowed into a POV other than Francie's. I get Johnny, but the butcher? Is it just a lapse in consistency? I find it fascinating.
I think Sissy is the most confusing of characters. I'm not convinced she's charming - I imagine she's the sort of woman who brags about how she doesn't have any female friends except her sister.
DeleteI read somewhere (let's be honest, probably Wikipedia) that Smith originally wrote this as an autobiography, but was reclassified later. I wonder if some of those quick internal POV switches are an effort for Smith to try and fictionalize it a bit more and add a little bit of color/character to the neighborhood. It's interesting who gets those POV shifts and what Smith is trying to communicate with them.
I hadn't consciously noticed the POV shifts, but now that you point it out, I know exactly what you're talking about! It is such an interesting narrative choice and I do like seeing little glimpses of the world through other people's eyes.
DeleteOh! Also I loved the midwife's involved ritual for undoing the witch's curse. This is very much my heritage - my mother once made me rub a potato on a wart and then bury said potato in a potted plant to kill the wart. Once the potato had completely decomposed the wart would fall off!
ReplyDeleteSpoiler alert - it did not.
Spoiler alert - it did not. Ha ha ha ha! I laughed for a long time at this. I'm glad you did this scientific experiment for us.
DeleteI loved the character development in this section of the book. And I love coming here after people have shared their thoughts - bringing up the rear, like usual!
ReplyDeletet's been fascinating to read about everyone's family traditions, and to see all the wonderful - and varied - book covers! I have no idea where mine came from but I know that I read it first from the library.
So, thoughts on your questions, and a few thoughts of my own...
1. No real family traditions. We were early independent readers so that happened on our own, in bed, um, sometimes under the covers with a flashlight, which my parents pretended not to know about. Ha. We did do the Lord's prayer every night together for years... and alternated the "trespasses" and "debts" versions since my brother liked one and I liked the other. HA.
2. RE: calling all the men "John". I thought it was because prostitute's clients are usually called Johns. Not that Sissy is one, but... that's the connection my mind made. Also, I die laughing every time I read about her crawling naked into the closet to nail down the bank. I remembered that description so vividly from my earlier readings!
3. The sexual misconduct does not surprise me at all. Women - and girls - have always been victimized. Add in kids who were not supervised, who were doing adult things alone (shopping) and well, opportunity for the sexual predators. They were just more visible then, maybe.
4. Nope, Georgie just stayed with his mother until he died. No inclination of why, though.
A few things I loved? Still, the vivid descriptions. The butcher shops. The "emasculated" carrot. :) I could smell the pumpernickel bread and limburger cheese that Evy buys on Saturday night. The visual contrast of saintly Mary Rommely and the "devil" Thomas Rommely. And, oh, the description of Francie in chapter 8. I have always, always loved that passage. <3
I'll stop now. I just keep remembering why this book has stayed with me for YEARS.
And oh, shoot! things that went over my head as a kid? The midwife and her evil-smelling bottle that she offered to Katie. Totally clueless.
DeleteThe whole midwife discussion is interesting to me because EVEN ON THIS REREAD I didn't think anything of the midwife. Zero interest from me. LOL.
DeleteOh, man! I had a whole long post and it got deleted! Dang it. I'll try to add it back in. This makes it look like I was not paying attention. :P
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DeleteOne thing that's kind of striking me about the commentors who are saying that since Francie is so strong, she didn't need Katie as much, or need the tenderness, etc. is that it kind of seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Francie was what, one?, when Neeley was born and he took over Katie's heart. Isn't it more likely that she had to be strong and not in need of tenderness because she was raised to not have it, as opposed to some sort on inherent strength that she was born with? I just find it so sad that she was shaped that way. This is also my first time reading this book- I can't imagine reading it when I was in school and how much of it would have gone over my head at that time.
ReplyDeleteWell, it's clear Katie preferred Neely, but so far I haven't come up with a lot of examples of Katie actually treating Francie that much differently than Francie, aside from what I would consider normal differences for boys and girls at the time. I mean, I am not a parent, but I assume parents have favorites, at least favorites at particular moments, but that doesn't always mean parents play favorites. I'm going to keep reading and see if I notice any differences in the way Francie is parented (again, beyond some of the expectations for housework, etc. that I would expect from any family in this time period).
DeleteOh, also Francie is older than Neely, so some of the additional responsibilities she gets could be chalked up to her being older. But now I think I'm just making excuses for Katie.
DeleteThis is such a good point. I did come away with the impression that the inner steel WAS inherent. Like, just by virtue of being a Rommely woman (or female descendant of a Rommely woman), you were strong. Because you had to be. But if that reading is accurate, it is heartbreaking. To put so much on the shoulders of a tiny child. Gah.
DeleteThis is a really good point! Francie became strong because she had to be, she needed her mother less because her mom GAVE her less (or so says the book). And, like Engie said, she was the firstborn and they often bear more responsibility. Sweet Francie. I am so tender toward her!
DeleteWow, this was so fun reading through your post and all of the subsequent comments!!
ReplyDelete1. Our family did not really have an every night tradition, although I do remember my Dad reading aloud from Robinson Caruso. Currently I always do an Octowordle before bed; does that count?
2. I am not so sure about Sissy. I love that she climbed naked into the closet to nail down the tin can bank, but I don't love that she went in and gave Johnny booze when Katie was trying to detox him. I also don't think she is a prostitute but her calling all her beau's John makes me think of this guy who I used to work with who called all of his girlfriend's Sweetie or something so that he would not have to remember their names.
3. Yes, the older men doing weird things to little girls is disturbing. I don't know if this is the right chapter, but I do like the descriptions of all of the odd men in the neighborhood -- the butcher who has to chop the onion and drops the suet on the ground, the pickle man who grumbles about having to dig for a pickle but then sits and dreams into his beard afterward...you can really feel all of their personalities!
4. I have no idea what happens/happened to Georgie!
This is so much fun and I think reading along a bunch of my bog friends will make this experience even better for me. To be honest I am bit struggling with the book. It is beautifully written but somehow it’s not (yet) catching my attention. But then I have been busy and my mind occupied for the b´past weeks. So we’ll see.
ReplyDelete1. I grew up reading every night – or better my mom read to us. Until we could red ourselves. But even then we often times listened when she read to my younger sister. We always had a book we read as family. Mainly that were all the Astrid Lindgren books. Not sure how it came to be but in my family and extended family this is a habit. My sister is continuing with her kids too and when I am there I read. I get woken up in the morning with book reading requests too. Love it.
2. I haven’t spend much time thinking about Sissy. For me she seems to be a social butterfly and living in the moment. I do not believe she is aware her actions have consequences.
3. That professor is creepy. I am glad Francie got pulled from that class.
4. I have no idea how he died but for some reason I believe it was said. I would have to go back and re-read - don’t want to though.
I have marked one quote so far in the book in Chapter 9 (p. 73 in the Kindle version)
Sometimes when the night was frosty and full of stars, they ran a little, skipped a little and laughed a lot.
I just find it so magical and sweet and childlike. A feeling I’d like to carry along more often.
Oh, I'm so glad we have people on here reading it for the first time!
DeleteThat is a wonderful quote to pick out, Tobia! It does make it seem sort of magical. We *should* all aspire for more of that in our lives.