Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn! Today we'll be discussing Chapters 19-26. Let's dive in!
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Let's all agree to stop apologizing in the comments, okay? Your comment isn't too long (although sometimes Blogger does eat super long comments, so feel free to break your posts up into smaller chunks if you're worried about that)! It's okay if you don't post immediately on Monday - it's actually encouraged that people come back later in the week to add to the conversation! Feel free to go back to previous weeks, too, if you're falling behind. It's okay if you don't want to answer the stupid questions I ask, but you want to talk about something else - this is also encouraged! Anything is okay and appreciated and no more apologies are necessary!
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Synopsis: Francie is so excited to start school! But when she gets there, it's terrible. It's crowded, the teachers are mean, the students are mean, and Francie's looked down on because she's poor. There's corporal punishment and teachers sleeping with the janitor during school hours and poor Francie and Neely go to school smelling like kerosene and garlic to avoid communicable diseases and poor Francie can't use the restroom all day long. But Sissy saves the day! Katie hears that Sissy had another miscarriage and welcomes Sissy back into the fold.
While Francie's school is terrible, there are some bright lights, especially the music and art teachers. Francie does love learning and she learns to read and tell stories with numbers in math. But she sees another school in a nearby neighborhood and convinces Johnny to lie about their address so she can go to school there and it's so much better. Yay for Francie!
We learn how the neighborhood handles the Fourth of July, Election Day, Halloween, and Thanksgiving. There's a boating excursion where everyone's wearing hats and (FORESHADOWING) Sergeant Michael McShane asks about Katie. Francie tells a teacher a lie about pies and the teacher gives her a pep talk about the difference between lying and storytelling.
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Things I looked up:
Tammany Hall (page 179 and elsewhere) - Look, I'm going to come off like a bad political scientist over here, but all I knew about Tammany Hall was that it was a powerful political machine that ran NYC for decades. I went way into the weeds on this Wikipedia article, but I think the only thing I was really missing of importance to this reading was that it really focused on encouraging immigrants, particularly the Irish, to rise up in the local Democratic Party. If you're interested in the lyrics to the full song that Francie was singing in Chapter 24, you can find it here.
I don't think Mattie Mahony was a real person. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 20: Francie attended school stinking of garlic and kerosene oil. Everyone avoided her. In the crowded yard, there was always a cleared space around her. In crowded trolley cars, people huddled away from those Nolan children. (page 161)
Here's a story from my life. We were poor in a rural area and we had a giant leaky farmhouse without central heat. We had a wood-burning pellet stove. Three times when I was in school that MFing stove started a housefire and I would have to go to school smelling like smoke because you can NEVER get that smell out of your clothes and backpack and coat and textbooks. I was shunned. But there was this nice popular guy who had a locker next to mine (his named started with Vi, mine started with Wa) and he was so kind and he shoved the bullies away and I can't find Gabe these days, but I hope he knows that I appreciated how he made a difficult time for me a lot easier.
Chapter 21: The two visiting teachers were the gold and silver sun-splash in the great muddy river of the school days, days made up of dreary hours in which Teacher made her pupils sit rigid with their hands folded behind their back while she read a novel hidden in her lap. If all the teachers had been like Miss Bernstone and Mr. Morton, Francie would have known plain what heaven was. (page 165)
I love that this book has a huge focus on how important good teachers are.
Chapter 22: Oh, magic hour when a child first knows it can read printed words! (page 166)
Yes! Learning to read is life altering.
"Is it, Papa?"
"But it's a wrong to gain a bigger good."
"Like a white lie?"
"Like a lie that helps someone out. So you must make up for the wrong by being twice as good. You must never be bad or absent or late. You must never do anything to make them send a letter home through the mails." (page 173)
Chapter 24: "For what Tammany gives to the people, it takes from them double. You wait until us women vote." Johnny's laugh interrupted her. (page 181)
And then Johnny's a real jerk.
Chapter 25: He felt that they needed lessons in - for what passed in his mind - geography, civics and sociology.. So he took them over to Bushwick Avenue. (page 191)
A field trip is never wrong. Damn it. Johnny's back to being a good parent. It's a roller coaster with this guy. Did you also immediately Google images of Bushwick Avenue?
Chapter 26: Francie always remembered what that kind teacher told her. "You know, Francie, a lot of people would think that these you're making up all the time were terrible lies because they are not the truth as people see the truth. In the future, when something comes up, you tell exactly how it happened but write down for yourself the way you think it should have happened. Tell the truth and write the story. Then you won't get mixed up." (page 199)
Back to good teaching again.
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
...tipped his hat gallantly and sauntered off down his beat...(page 157)
He was wearing his only suit, the tuxedo and his derby hat and he looked very grand. (page 170)
Mama sat on deck looking very pretty in her jade-green straw hat and a yellow dotted-swiss dress...(page 182)
"Would that be your mother sittin' over there in the green hat?" (page 183)
She put on her brushed and pressed gray suit with all the braid on it and tilted her jade-green velvet hat over her right eye. (page 188)
Oh, to wear such a great coat with large buttons and a velvet collar and a squashed-down high hat with a ribbon cockade in the band! (page 192)
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Questions for you:
1) Lice. What's my question? I don't know. Just. Lice. I'm scratching my head just thinking about it.
2) Do you remember learning to read? I was a late learner, but I have a similar memory to Francie of seeing the word "cat" and suddenly understanding that it meant a CAT. And then I never stopped reading.
3) I think I've mentioned before that Election Day is one of my top five holidays. I think it's because of this book. Election Day should be a federal holiday. Have you ever read about a holiday tradition and started incorporating it into your life?
4) There's a lot about politics in these chapters and I'll admit that Johnny being a jerk about women voting took me by surprise a little bit because sometimes I forget that 1920, when white women got suffrage in the US, was much more recent than it should be! It's been just over one hundred years. Women now generally vote in greater numbers than men in the United States. How do you think you would have handled Johnny's scoffing at the idea of women voting?
5) How many hats does Katie have? She has at least TWO jade-green hats (a velvet one and a straw one) and that seems like a lot for what I imagine is a small wardrobe. (This is not a real question. It's just something I noticed and I tried to figure out if they were the same hat because jade-green is so specific, but I think they have to be different.)
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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More book-related ephemera:
There are currently three copies of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn in our house. There's the one I'm reading, the one my husband borrowed from the university library so he could read it, and the one I purchased from Barnes & Noble in the early 2000s. I'd like to talk about the last two.
The one my husband has from the university library looks like this:
But as I was flipping through it, I noticed this in the front matter:
Before the title page, there's a passage that is NOT found in either of the copies I have!
There's a tree that grows in Brooklyn. Some people call it the Tree of Heaven. No matter where its seed falls, it makes a tree which struggles to reach the sky. It grows in boarded-up lots and out of neglected rubbish heaps. It grows up out of cellar gratings. It is the only tree that grows out of cement. It grows lushly...survives without sun, water, and seemingly without earth. It would be considered beautiful except that there are too many of it.
Does your copy have this passage?
Meanwhile, my copy from the 2000s is just a regular HarperPerennial version. Allison and Stephany have what I assume are the same edition.
(Tangent: Ever since I've known my husband I've been discussing a hypothetical tattoo that I will never get. That tattoo is of THIS copy of ATGIB in with Francie's leg hanging down and a two of hearts playing card being used as a bookmark. This tattoo will never happen, but I want you to know that I've had the same idea for going on two decades now.)
The reason I bought a new book for this reread instead of just reading the copy I already owned is that this HarperPerennial copy is mispaginated and it makes it SO UNPLEASANT to read.
Here are a couple of examples:
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| It goes from page 60 to page 63. |
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| From page 94 to page 97. |
I'm super enjoying this "let's show pictures of our books" portion of book club. Does anyone else have anything interesting about their books they'd like to share?
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Upcoming schedule:
August 7 (Chapters 27 - 32)
August 14 (Chapters 33 - 37)
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
My version does have that quote, and I remember it from when I first read it too, so I guess my library has it as well. Or, had it, this was so many years ago.
ReplyDeleteI didn't love this section, to be honest. It was interesting enough to read about how the politics worked, but I was really put off by the adult behaviour - between Johnny's sexism and Katie being so mean to other women - and also the terrible school that it was hard for me to enjoy it, if that makes sense. But it does paint a realistic picture, to be sure. I liked the part about Francie figuring out how to write a story, and my heart broke at all the children being so hungry for pie but too proud to ask for it.
Election day is not really a thing in Canada as we don't have a fixed day for elections.
I also really didn't like this section. It felt sad and heavy.
DeleteI definitely skimmed the election stuff in these chapters; like Nicole mentions, Election Day is not at all relevant in Canada since our election date fluctuates and it's relatively low key when it happens. An election can get called a month or so before the date, campaigning is low key...we show up and vote and move on with life. It's just a completely different vibe and experience than the US!
I am enjoying that the Election Day stuff was so boring to the Canadians. Yawn! to American politics!
DeleteI was absolutely riveted by the school scenes. I thought it just seemed so real. Hard, sure, but school WAS hard.
Katie was so mean! Between being so embarrassed last time she made them move, to this time where she basically calls a whole bunch of women whores, Katie has an arrogant side to her I find offputting.
DeleteHahaha - it cracks me up that Canada is so blase about elections! They take over EVERYTHING here, omg. I am getting spam texts a dozen times a day about all manner of upcoming elections. I would LOVE to feel like it was low key! Instead, I am so stressed out for months/years!!!!!
DeleteThis was a really tough section to read! I hated the scenes at the first school. It was just so hard for Francie to have such a bad time when she was so excited about learning. I did love Sissy's scenes, though!
DeleteYes, my copy has this passage. It's the hardcover Harper & Row edition. I think I got it from Amazon decades and decades ago.
ReplyDeleteLice: I've never had them, and neither have any of my sibs or kids. Thankfully. This scene always makes me feel bad for Francie because again, her mother's stubbornness further isolates her, and Francie simply accepts her fate.
2. Reading: I don't remember exactly when I learned to read, but I was very young, about 2 or 3. My dad used to come home from work and read the newspaper to my mother as she made dinner, and I used to sit on his lap. He also used to read the Sunday comics to us all in their bed in the morning before breakfast and church. At some point the words started to make sense, to mean something. I was already reading at a 6th grade level in kindergarten.
3. Election Day: Why it isn't a federal holiday is beyond me. Voting in a democracy is vitally important.
I'm going off the questions to talk about Sissy. Once again, she comes to Francie's rescue. She is the warmth and maternal love that Francie is so sorely lacking in her life. It's painful to read that this little girl can't tell her mother about wetting herself in class due to her teacher's cruel favouritism because she knows her mother's reaction will be to shame her. Instead, Sissy advocates for her, showers her with understanding and affection, and (albeit temporarily) fixes the problem. Like Johnny, Sissy tells a White Lie in service to The Greater Good.
It's interesting that the only reason Katie allows Sissy back into their lives is because Sissy lost another child. Katie can feel some sympathy and generosity, but it doesn't seem to extend to her daughter, even when Francie childishly fell for a ruse and lost all her carnival tickets. She was expected to Learn Her Lesson.
It's no wonder that Francie is drawn to Johnny, even though he is a drunk and a drain on the family. He is compassionate, his thoughts on women's suffrage to the contrary. And he actually listens to Francie and cares what's going on in her life. He tries to help her, and he actually does. That goes a long way for a child who is lonely and feels ashamed for her desires, as simple as they are.
I thought it was such an abrupt mention about Sissy having yet another stillbirth. Pregnancy is a long process - imagine all that time dreaming for a little one and being separated from the Nolans - so the fact it's just a line item in the chapter made me sad. Poor Sissy. I can't imagine going through that long process over and over again; the changes to your body and hormones and the trauma of birth.
DeleteAnd Katie really is quite mean to Francie. Loving Neely more, sending them off to get vaccinated solo, not caring about the tickets, making her walk home from school for lunch. I can't decide whether Katie is good underneath it all at this point (and thinks allowing Francie to experience hard knocks now will help her out later)...or if she's just a mean parent a lot of time because she has such a difficult life taking care of the family?
Such a good point here! Sissy is the lightness and goodness that Francie sorely needs right now, while Katie is just a hard parent who doesn't give Francie the comfort she needs. Katie is just so awful! I am having such a hard time with her character.
DeleteEngie, I’m Canadian. Apologizing is WHAT I DO!
ReplyDeleteI (nor either of my children) have never had lice. I shudder to imagine it. Your childhood story about the fires is so sad and I want to swoop in and give you a giant hug in those moments. Isn’t it incredible how much the kindness of one person (Gabe, in your case) can stand out for us over the years?
Those skipped page numbers would drive me crazy. Who does that???!!!
I found this set of chapters...sad. I don’t remember feeling so sad reading this the first time. But I ache for everyone. It seems like such a hopeless situation and even the happy moments are overshadowed by realizing it’s a dark place for our characters. Also, Katie can be pretty mean! Why, Katie?
Backing up (which I’m NOT apologizing about) to the end of Chapter 13 about the minstrels who had the “nerve” to stand in the back yard: “The sad thing was in the knowing that all their nerve would get them nowhere in the world and that they were lost as all people in Brooklyn seem lost when the day is nearly over and even though the sun is bright, it is thin and doesn’t give you the warmth when it shines on you.”
These people are striving but it’s nearly impossible to break out of their narrow realities.
Chapter 21: “He taught them good music without letting them know it was good.” This reminds me of something my Dad says regularly as he watches my kids: “They don’t know how good they’ve got it.” NOT knowing is a sign of just how charmed a life they lead (happy, stable home, always food on the table etc.). I love that the teacher taught them not just the bare basics, but went above and beyond.
Chapter 22: “So arithmetic was a warm and human thing to Francie and occupied many lonely hours of time.” This is definitely not how I felt about math – haha.
Chapter 23: About Francie having to walk home for lunch from her new school: “She was so happy in the new school she was anxious to pay in some way for this joy.” Why do we always feel like we have to offset joy in this way…like we don’t deserve good? This is something I can so relate to in my own life.
Chapter 24: Francie doesn’t want to set off firecrackers: “It was better to have them than to use them.” Can’t we all relate to hoarding something; we like to accumulate and have, but struggle to release and use.
Chapter 26: “Although Katie had this same flair for coloring an incident and Johnny himself lives in a half-dream world, yet they tried to squelch these things in their child.” Isn’t this so often the case with parents? I’m guilty of it myself; I see my own tendencies in my children and try to vicariously change in them what I might think needs changing in myself?
I love how Chapter 26 ends – this is a pivotal moment in Francie’s life. That experience with the pie, with the teacher, and with recognizing she can write! And a reminder how early in our lives these pivotal moments can happen.
Okay, you can apologize in a Canadian way, but I am allowed to grumble about it. Women apologize too much! You're not doing ATGIB the wrong way! There's no wrong way! (Should I apologize for using to many exclamation points? I will not!)
DeleteOh, Francie wanting to keep the firecrackers instead of using them! I relate So Hard! I fight against this in my real life. Use the nice makeup! It doesn't last forever and if you save it "for a special occasion," it might be spoiled. Tuesday IS a special occasion. Send the lovely postcard. The recipient will love it, too. Put the bowls from Grandma's house out and use. Sure, there's a *chance* they might get broken, but no one will benefit from their gloriousness if they're always in the cupboard.
This was a really tough section! But I love what you said about the way this section ends, with Francie having a pivotal moment with her teacher. Such a good point!
DeleteLove the pivotal moment idea, too. Engie, did you set it up that way on purpose? :) It's so true, though. I love Teacher (isn't it lovely how Smith capitalizes that, elevating Teacher [and by extension, teacherS] in a way?).
DeleteI wasn’t able to take notes on my reading this chapter block, but I was so captivated by the descriptions of school. Goodness what an awful situation! Although the good teachers were such bright spots. Teachers have such tremendous power over kids. And I’m very glad that Francie and her dad found a way to get her into a slightly better situation (laughing forever about the people who own the house Francie says is hers, who view her as a very odd and neat child), but WHAT ABOUT NEELY? Wasn’t Francie held back for the sole purpose of being able to watch out for Neely at school? And now he just has to fend for himself? The poor kid seems to get into all sorts of scraps and scrapes.
ReplyDeleteI also found the political goings-on to be fascinating and kind of baffling. There seems to be so much misinformation. Johnny and Katie seem to know so little about who they are voting for and why. But it’s clearly The Only Choice. Very interesting!
The whole thing about the Sergeant made me look askance at Katie! And Engie, you call it out as foreshadowing!!! I can’t remember this storyline and I am very nervous!!!!
1. Yuck. Lice. My daughter had it once and it was NOT FUN TO DEAL WITH. I did learn (from the professional lice removal service we hired; thank god for the people who choose lice picking as their vocation) that lice do not like dirty hair, so the garlic seems like it could have some basis in fact. The prevention tactics we take now are braiding her hair when she is at camp and spraying her hair with this rosemary spray that makes it fragrant (but pleasantly so!) and slightly sticky.
2. I don’t remember learning to read! It’s like it was always there. The moment Smith describes about Francie suddenly being able to make sense of the collected letters makes me so happy though. I wish I could remember that instant in my own life!
3. Election Day should totally be a holiday. I love the way it was so special and spectacular for the Nolans and their community.
4. I was very glad that Katie, at least, seemed sure that women would be able to vote at some point. But it was surprising to relearn that women have only had the vote for such a short time.
5. While I am not sure about Katie’s hats, I do recall thinking that she has quite a lot of clothing! Johnny has his single tuxedo (what does he wear otherwise?) but Katie always seems to be turned out quite well.
6. Yes! My book has this passage. It’s included as kind of an epigraph between the title page and the foreword.
7. Engie: Why is the tattoo never going to happen? It sounds AMAZING. Also: your husband is reading along with us too?!?! Will he come comment? I am very curious to hear his thoughts!
Yes! I think Katie does have a lot of clothing considering how poor they are. Although, I do think it's mentioned that she borrowed the dress she wore to the picnic from Evy (182), so maybe it's more like a shared wardrobe situation? What DOES Johnny wear when he's not wearing the tuxedo? Great question!
DeleteThe tattoo is never going to happen because I have yet to see a tattoo that looks great after 5-10 years and I'm too vain to have a crappy looking tattoo. I'm not great about sunscreen on my body during my daily walks, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do it any favors. But if I WERE going to get one, it would be this one.
I learned lice don't like dirty hair from an afterschool special (or tv show?) about biases - the kids thought the lice came from the poor kid but found out it was actually the rich kid. I immediately thought about that while reading, because it means the lice didn't stem from being "dirty", but instead most likely from the inability to treat the lice once it was caught.
DeleteOh, Suzanne! My husband is reading the book, but he is much further along than we are at this point. He has some very interesting questions and we've had some nice conversations about the book, but I don't think he will chime in here. He thinks of my blog as my private space, which is charming.
DeleteHis big question that I can't answer is: Why did Sissy have the condoms with her in the first place? Sure, she works in a condom factory, but she's a Catholic who's clearly trying to get pregnant all the time. If she wanted the box for the kids to play with, why not take the condoms out? Why the condoms? (Shouting why the condoms? in a loud voice temporarily took over our house for about 24 hours.)
Thank you, Suzanne, for saying this: "I don’t remember learning to read! It’s like it was always there." I've been sitting here, desperately trying to remember when I started to read and... I cannot remember. All I remember is that books-books-books were always there for me. <3
DeleteOkay, now I'm laughing with the "Why the condoms" being shouted around your house. But...fair question.
DeleteWHY THE CONDOMS?!
DeleteLaughing over here. Great question indeed. Doesn't make sense when you think about it,
DeleteI immediately thought of you, Engie, in the chapter about Election Day. I thought that glimpse into politics at the time was fascinating. And I didn't blame Johnny too much for his scoffing at women voting- he was just expressing a common sentiment of the time. And on that subject, I like Johnny! I know, he has his issues. But when he's in good shape, he's a good father to Francie. And these chapters made me dislike Katie. She's very cold towards Francie, doesn't care if she's miserable in school, puts kerosene in her hair (she would probably say that she doesn't care if Francie is shunned, as long as she remains lice-free) and does nothing to stick up for her kids. She should have been the one going into the school to complain. But of course she didn't know that Francie had a bathroom issue because Francie was too scared to tell her. Once again, Sissy to the rescue! And Johnny to the rescue, for getting Francie out of that terrible school. I know Katie's life is hard, but she could still have compassion for her daughter.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could remember when I first learned to read, but I don't. I just remember reading in first grade, and that I loved it. I wish I loved math like Francie does! I think I would have liked it more if I had her imagination.
I agree that Katie came across as so cold and unlikable in these chapters! Johnny really shines, at least as a compassionate father who wants the best for his kids. And maybe Katie wants the best for them, too, but she goes about it in such a harsh way!
DeleteJohnny is confounding to me. I think he would probably be a very good father and man if only he weren't an alcoholic. Cold comfort for his family, I bet.
DeleteOh, Francie and the bathroom issue broke my heart. Poor girl. The theme of shame that Suzanne talked about last week coming out again. Thank goodness for Sissy.
I agree with you, NG. It's obvious that Johnny is in the clutches of alcoholism, and the disease is making him unable to be a good husband and good father consistently. He has a lot of grandiose ideas about Big Concepts, and he truly believes in them, but he cannot seem to handle the day to day business of anything. Luckily, he comes through now and again, and for Francie.
DeleteI really feel bad for Katie sometimes too, though! She is just so exhausted all the time, keeping things together that there isn't a whole lot left in her to show affection for her daughter - she's doing all the things that she *thinks* she should be doing for Francie's good, and she can't see that what her daughter needs most is her love and affection. I wonder if because she has had such a rough go of it, Katie doesn't want Francie to have an expectation of an easy life either?
DeleteExactly, Diane! Katie is such a complicated figure. She's obviously working hard to keep that family together and it seems like a lot of the harshness and hardness that people are talking about just come from exhaustion. I do think what's coming off as Katie being mean or careless with Francie is sometimes about her "toughening" Francie up for the future. Is it fair? Maybe not. Does it seem real? Yes. You have to parent the child you have, right, and it seems like Katie is parenting Francie different from Neely, but that's because she thinks Francie needs different lessons? I don't know. She's very complicated, Katie is.
DeleteI have a soft spot for Johnny, too, Jenny. There are times when he is just such a good father to Francie: helping her when she thought her arm was infected, getting her into the school, etc. He's not without his faults, but there's something about him that endears him to me, way more than Katie.
DeleteI love all of your observations. I too was so mad/sad at the bad teachers and so thankful that Francie had a few good teachers that she admired and enjoyed. I was overjoyed when she learned to read!!
ReplyDeleteLice. Good lord. It’s horrible. I never had it, but my girls did a few times and I thought I’d lose my mind. I can’t believe Katie had ZERO compassion for her children and how she must have known how they’d be treated.
Somethings that struck me while reading these chapters:
We had a house fire once while I was in sixth grade. My Mom’s mattress caught fire and the house stunk. Our clothes, everything, so I completely sympathize with you and your MFIng fire smell issues. How nice to have someone stick up for you and I too hope he’s had all good Karma in his life.
When Francie was lucky enough to make it to the new school, her mother Katie would not send a lunch with her and instead made her walk 48 blocks each way to get her sandwich. Mother of the year, she was not!
My mind was a bit blown with the amount of politics in this chapter and how the immigrants votes were bought. I mean, this still happens, but it was so blatant.
I was surprised by the Thanksgiving tradition of dressing up and begging in the streets.
I remember Bettty writing about Hat’s, but I don’t think I picked up the details of them as much as you do. Hey, hats are YOUR thing. *giggle*
I'm fascinated about your hypothetical tattoo; what a brilliant idea. I might never get that some one!
Gabe, if you're out there, you're a good dude.
DeleteI found it crazy how much some of the traditions around holidays are different. Like, the dressing up on Thanksgiving seems more like what I think of as Halloween! Interesting how times and traditions change.
1. Lice. OMG. I have never had it but if my kids start itching hear their head, I instantly panic that they have lice and I'll need to burn the house down (joking but it might cross my mind as a solution.)
ReplyDelete2. I do sort of remember learning to read. My 2nd oldest brother kind of taught me. I remember using this really tattered, old copy of a Dick and Jane book. Now I have the pleasure of watching Paul learn to read. I did not necessarily set out for him to learn before kindergarten but he's taken an interest in it, probably because we've read to him a ton. It is very very cool to see him figure out how to say words.
3. I am not super into election day... I have always voted but I find elections to be very stressful and in recent years, it makes me depressed about the state of our country...
4. Oh I would not have handled that comment well AT ALL.
5. Katie probably has more hats that me, but I do not like wearing hats and only wear baseball caps so I just use them when I am very very casually dressed (which is much of the time, but nearly all the time when my kids are around).
I have mixed feelings about Johnny. I think he's trying and just isn't equipped to be the kind of parent his kids need/deserve. But I like that he does have his moments where he shines. And he seems more kind/affectionate towards them than Katie?
I had lice as a child. Am traumatized. Will say no more.
DeleteYes, I think Johnny is probably a good father and husband and guy. But he's an alcoholic and that disease is just not doing anyone any favors in this situation. I think Katie sometimes comes off like the bad guy because she has to be the entire force that runs the family and I think she's just tired and stressed all the time. Definitely complicated characters!
I weirdly have a soft spot for Johnny because he seems to be a bit more kindhearted towards Francie than Katie is. But he definitely has his faults.
DeleteUgh-- I think public school is still basically like this but less outwardly terrible, of course. I am thinking specifically of my oldest's terrible horrible second-grad teacher and how she fawned on the kids whose parents gave her Packers and Badger football tickets.
ReplyDelete1. I will NEVER forget the description of Francie’s seat mate with lice and have always thought of the kerosene treatment– especially when preschool would send home lice notifications. (we have avoided it SO FAR…)
2. SAME! I was in kindergarten reading the I SEE SAM phonics set and it just clicked for me.
3.The way Judy Blume wrote about Halloween and fall generally in Blubber made merely love leaves and cold air and children running amok-- her descriptions were very evocative and aspirational.
4. I study this time period and teach about it in my social movements class. I am not surprised at all by the attitude of poor white men in 1908. I hope I would have been on the cutting edge of suffrage, but probably not, especially if 1908 me had 5 kids– SO MUCH WORK. Or maybe Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and I would have been besties **shrug** But seriously, probably not. Likely just another housewife losing sons to the war effort in a few short years-- more Anne Shrley than Alice Paul.
5. LOL. When I was little and read this book, I accepted wholesale the idea that Katie has remarkable jade green eyes. Now I just think it's kind of bad writing.
I don't have a lot of beefs with the K-12 public school system where I went. I had great teachers who treated me fairly despite my family's low-income bracket. But I was a smart, well-behaved female child and I wonder if I'd have those same positive feelings about school if even one of those variables had been different.
DeleteI think Katie has brown eyes (this description comes from Chapter 7 when Johnny and Katie meet, page 59 in my copy). She's just always wearing jade-green hats for some reason! Maybe it was just bad writing, though. That hurts my heart to say.
I thought her hat matched her eyes, but I see my mistake.
Delete1. I remember being checked for lice in school as a young 'un. Do they still do that nowadays? I remember a lot of rumors but I can't remember anyone ever having it.
ReplyDelete2. I can't remember learning to read, but I was always a reader. I did get some shade in the first grade because I liked to reread books and someone saw me reading an "easy" book and made fun of me.
3. For the first time this year election day is a school holiday in our town so that teachers can vote. I'm a fan.
4. I think that many men had Johnny's attitude back in the day, so I don't think that he stood out much. It's very easy to forget that women couldn't vote until 100 years ago and had a lot of other restrictions as well.
5. Interesting question! I would think that Katie's wardrobe is small as well, but maybe it's the equivalent of a movie continuity error where Smith was describing what she saw in her mind and not keeping track.
Yes I have the Tree of Heaven blurb in the front of my book. There's also a note that the printing is in compliance with wartime regulations "this book is complete and unabridged in contents, and is manufactured in strict conformity with Government regulations for saving paper". The print is a bit smaller, but nothing that these 48 year old eyes can't read.
Wow, Birchie! Your book has it ALL. I'm so envious of all the additional ephemera associated with your copy.
DeleteLice checks were a very stressful time for a young NGS, I'll say that much. I do wonder if they do those still. Seems so mean to the kids!
Oh, no! That story about your brother's teacher hurts my heart so much! Way to make a reluctant reader even more reluctant. It's insane how easily words can hurt a child.
ReplyDeleteWow! on the tradition of masking on Thanksgiving. Those photographs are so interesting. I'd love to see them in color. LOL.
Thanks, J, for the link. I read it with great interest, and I loved the photos.
ReplyDeleteI think your comparison to Scarlett is apt. Hats frame the face, and if they're lined, they often accentuate the eyes. Katie would definitely want to play up the green of hers, which would be a very attractive feature. Hats could also easily be refreshed with new ribbon and flowers or feathers.
I'm really sorry about that cruel, thoughtless remark from that teacher. It's unfortunate that some teachers are not in the profession because they truly have the gift or like kids or even want to teach. Even now, some people enter the field because they can't think of anything else to do, or they find that "all they have to do is take some education courses" and get certfied, or they "like the hours and summers off." Those people are in for a rude awakening, but before they finally get out (if they do), the damage they inflict on students is unforgiveable.
I feel like apologizing! We are going camping tomorrow and I'm so tired from camping prep I am behind. No matter, I am loving the excuse to reread.
ReplyDeleteThe description of Francie's first school broke my heart. I was so mad at the bitchy teacher, and at Katie for making Francie go to school smelling of kerosene and garlic.
The description of the second school, and Francie actually getting to go there made me happy, although Johnny drawing out the newspaper-reading and everything and making her wait until late seemed mean, and the fact that she had to walk all those blocks home for lunch because Katie wouldn't pack her a lunch made me mad again.
The math thing, where she assigned family members to all the numbers, was heartbreakingly beautiful. I wish I ever felt like that about math.
I think maybe hats were so important that even poor people would have to have a couple? But I don't know.
Oh, back to the bitchy teacher. The first time I read that sentence, I thought she was READING TO THEM while making them fold their hands behind their backs, which is bad enough. Now I see that she was just READING TO HERSELF from a novel hidden in her lap, while making them fold their hands behind their backs, and, and... *hulksmash*
Ooooh yes! I totally forgot how Johnny made Francie wait FOREVER to walk with her to the school!
DeleteThe math thing really shows that Francie has SUCH an imagination, and can make anything endurable by using the power of her mind... but I still do not understand math and her math families did not help me. LOL.
Suzanne, if I thought of numbers as people, I would be so distracted by the storytelling aspect of math that I wouldn't get anything done! I'm more impressed that Francie could do BOTH things at once than I am at her creating stories with numbers since that seems to be her default.
DeleteI've finally manage to catch up to your read along schedule!
ReplyDeleteMy favorite parts in these chapters were the incidents when people helped Francie get ahead - Aunt Sissy, her dad getting her transferred to another school, Sergeant McShane giving her extra tickets ... it seems like there is so much that is such a hard scramble for Francie, that she has to face on her own, that when someone helps her, it feels huge.
-My oldest had lice once in first grade. It was tedious. My husband spent an afternoon in the backyard combing out her hair and throwing nits into the grass. Then the special hair wash and then more combing. Ugh. We've had bed bugs before too. Part of me thinks, "It's just bugs, why do we all freak out?" I've come to realize these bugs are so pervasive their presence is not indicative of cleanliness. But they do make life so. unpleasant.
- I don't remember learning to read, but I do remember in kindergarten standing up in front of the whole class and reading that Carrot Seed book. I think I took reading for granted, and as I watch my kids learn to read, I'm struck by what a wonderful thing it is.
- I wish Election day were a federal holiday. At the same time, I really appreciate early voting and vote by mail.
-You and Gabe! This is the stuff fan fiction is made of! What a sweet story.
I looked up:
Dr. Cook - that parade at the end of chapter 25 kind of took me by surprise, coming out of nowhere. Such scandal and controversy in his life!
- "roached hair" in chapter 24, in describing the picture of the man on the button. It's a hairstyle where the hair is brushed over the head from the forehead and temples. Or also a mohawk. Google also gave me a few pictures of people with cockroaches crawling on their heads. Which kind of gave me the shivers.
- I also looked up and listened to the songs that the Mattie Mahoney Band played.
Quotes I pulled:
Chapter 24, when Katie says, "I work so hard, sometimes I forget that I'm a woman." Ouch. It sort of links back to the quote in Chapter 19 about school teachers: "Married women weren't allowed to teach in those days, hence most of the teachers were women made neurotic by starved love instincts. These barren women spent their fury on other women's children in a a twisted authoritative manner." It seems like the window for a female to be considered attractive is very small and then she is quickly de-femininized (is that a word?) by the more practical things she can do for society - bear children, clean houses, teach kids...
Katie works so hard and seems so put out with everything in life, and yet when Johnny can't understand why she wants to go to the party up the Hudson, she says, "I'm going because I like life." Huh. I never would have guessed that of her...
The roached hair and Dr. Cook were such good catches! I didn't know about Cook's controversies, either, and it was interesting to think about where his claims fit in with other disputed scientific claims.
DeleteI said it upthread and I'll say it again, I bet. Katie is so complicated. I think that she only comes off as the not fun parents because she has to! I imagine if she didn't have to work so hard to support the family, she'd take the kids on more fun outings and she wouldn't always just be the serious parent!
Diane! You are me! I looked up Cook and roached hair, too. (And OMG, the images of roaches, EW.) But my impression from the headdresses was that it was a hairstyle that stood up like a brush, whereas yours was that the hair is brushed back. I bet you're right, though, given the time the novel takes place...
DeleteI have the passage about the Tree of Heaven, before the forward by Anna Quindlen.
ReplyDelete1. I never had lice, but some of my nieces and nephews have had it. There is still a shame that comes with it - I've had to go buy the kit for people I know because they refused to be seen buying it for their children. I mean, they knew they needed to go buy it but would beg until they found someone to get it for them.
2. I apparently learned to read at age two; my mother tells a story of me at the laundromat reading a book and a man said I must have memorized it, so he challenged me to read things around the room and, according to my mother, I did.
3. Election day as a holiday would just be a day off for a lot of people in my immediate family/circle. I try to rouse them but....
4. When Johnny "put his arm around her and gave her a quick hug" and told her she would just vote the way he did, I wanted to punch him. Damn it, Johnny.
5. I haven't noticed Katie's wardrobe. But it does fit in with her character, to me, that she would care about appearances to the point of having an entire wardrobe and several fashionable hats.
Lines of note:
"'Francie, baby, you're trembling like a leaf.'
Francie had never heard that expression and it made her thoughtful. She looked at the little tree growing out of the concrete at the side of the house. There were still a few dried leaves clinging to it. One of them rustled dryly in the wind. Trembling like a leaf. She stored the phrase away in her mind. Trembling...." (Page 153) - Talk about the Tree of Heaven! This whole paragraph is so symbolic.
All of Chapter 21.
(Page 164) - The way Francie imagines as she reads! I am obsessed with the different ways people imagine. I like to ask people to imagine an apple and tell me what they imagine. NGS, I think you told me you imagine mostly in words almost like subtitles. I imagine like Francie. If I imagine an apple I imagine my great aunt Sally's apple orchard and she picks a green apple and she makes a pie and she puts it on the windowsill and Porky Pig tries to steal it. And Francie's mathematical imaginations - it's like a kind of synestesia. The number seven is a grumpy old man but he's also the color red, etc. Also, Francie invents the meme "Dear Algebra: Please stop asking us to find your X. She's never coming back and don't ask Y."
Page 169 - Johnny's gentle treatment of the lady of the evening juxtaposed to Katie's description of the well-dressed women as mostly prostitutes (but in a clearly mean-spirited way).
And lastly, "It was a good thing that she got herself into this other school. It showed her that there were other worlds beside the world she had been born into and that these other worlds were not unattainable." (Page 174) Yay Francie for finding a safe place! But will Francie grow up to be like those other characters who try to distance themselves from their background (like the nurse)?
Yes, I do NOT see pictures in my head when I read. I think it must be related to me not watching a lot of tv and movies. The words matter to me, not the images. But I imagine (ha!) that the imaginary lives of people who do see images are much more vivid than mine! Including Francie and her made up stories about numbers.
DeleteI think your point about Katie being interested in appearances is interesting and not one I had considered before. She's so embarrassed by Johnny's drunkenness that she makes them move apartments, same with the kids playing with the condoms, and making sure Johnny's suit is freshly laundered with a new dickey every day. She gives the piano teacher coffee and a snack because she doesn't want to do less than others. Very interesting point about what Katie will do to keep up appearances, which is super interesting since anyone looking at the family from the outside would have to know they aren't prospering economically.
- 1) Lice. What's my question? I don't know. Just. Lice. I'm scratching my head just thinking about it.
ReplyDelete- Haha. i'm thinking about a photo I have me sitting on the (closed) toilet in our old bathroom with my son on the floor in front of my while I went through his hair looking for lice. We had lots of lice through the kids kindergarten but luckily none of mine ever bought it home.
- 2) Do you remember learning to read? I was a late learner, but I have a similar memory to Francie of seeing the word "cat" and suddenly understanding that it meant a CAT. And then I never stopped reading.
- I can't rembember learning to read and not because I was an early reader. It's so cool that you can.
- 3) I think I've mentioned before that Election Day is one of my top five holidays. I think it's because of this book. Election Day should be a federal holiday. Have you ever read about a holiday tradition and started incorporating it into your life?
- We have a system where federal election date is set by the government of the day within a 6-month window 3 years out from the previous one so it moves around. It used to be the same for the state but they changed it to the last Saturday in November every four years. I had to do some googling re Election Day.
- This quote made me laugh and think not much has changed.
- "After Election, the politicians forgot their promises and enjoyed an earned rest until New Year, when they started work on the next Election."
- 4) There's a lot about politics in these chapters and I'll admit that Johnny being a jerk about women voting took me by surprise a little bit because sometimes I forget that 1920, when white women got suffrage in the US, was much more recent than it should be! It's been just over one hundred years. Women now generally vote in greater numbers than men in the United States. How do you think you would have handled Johnny's scoffing at the idea of women voting?
- It is hard to even imagine how I would have responded to this, but I agree, he was a real jerk here, especially where he goes into how Katie would vote the way he told her to.
- Thinking about the focus on teaching, I kind of feel that it is important for all kids but even more important for disadvantaged kids but here we see the kids that are more disadvantaged having less educational advantages, which I think unfortunately still happens a bit.
- This about the music teacher was pretty insightful "He taught them good music without letting them know it was good"
- The other thing that really struck me was Francie's loneliness and it made me remember when I changed schools 1/3 of the way through grade four and had a period where I was really lonely. "But she had become accustomed to being lonely. She was used to walking alone and to being considered "different." She did not suffer too much" and the way books filled that void for her. "From that time on, the world was hers for the reading. She would never be lonely again, never miss the lack of intimate friends. Books became her friends and there was one for every mood." Maybe if she wasn't so lonely she may not have been such a voracious reader?
As an American, the quote about after the election, the politicians forgot their promises and focused on the next election did not make me laugh. It hurt my heart. :(
DeleteIt's interesting to think about this book as a loosely autobiographical story of Betty Smith and would we even have this book if she'd been a child who had more friends or a stronger family support network? I do think if Francie had more socialization to do, she probably wouldn't have become the bookworm we know and love. I wonder if Smith would have chosen a different childhood if she could have?
Katie has brown eyes, not green (we learn this in chapter 7). I am not sure why Katie has so many green hats - maybe they just flatter her skin tone/hair color?
ReplyDeleteThis was such a sad section of chapters but ended on a hopeful note. I love that Francie found a school she loved and Johnny made sure she got to attend. I was also happy to see Sissy came back into the fold and I love the relationship she has with Francie.
ReplyDelete1) Ugh, lice. I had it MULTIPLE times from ages 10-13ish. That's what happens when you're part of a church group and have all of these sleepovers with tons of kids! My mom started making me braid my hair and douse it in hairspray to keep the lice away, which would sometimes work.
2) I loved the scene of Francie realizing she knew how to read. How special! I do not know when I learned to read but it was before I was in kindergarten. I was sent to a remedial reading class in kindergarten because I didn't read with my finger on the words. So silly!
3) I knew you would love the Election Day passages! It should be a federal holiday, but I also wonder if that would even help people who work hourly jobs, and they don't get federal holidays off anyway, so it would really just benefit those with more "white collar" jobs anyway. A conundrum for sure.
4) I don't think I would have even noticed Johnny's opinion, honestly. I would hope I would be the person who was fighting for a woman's right to vote, but his opinion was pretty normal for the time, unfortunately.
5) Gotta be honest here, I don't even notice the hats. I KNOW. BLASPHEMY.
Stephany, I got yelled at in kindergarten because I would put my head down on my left arm while writing/coloring with my right. I still remember my teacher (who was otherwise wonderful) telling me that I needed to sit up, rather than "writing with my ear". Huh? Sometimes (lots of times) elementary school is so weird.
DeleteWriting with your ear!! LOLOLOLOL. I would have made you do some crunches because obviously your core wasn't strong enough to hold you up while you were writing! (I mean, obv, this is why I don't teach kindergarten.)
DeleteStephany, I can't believe you didn't notice the hats. How is that not the #1 thing you're following?!
These chapters didn't strike me as sad, as they did many others. I guess I was looking for the points of light amid all the not-as-nice stuff...
ReplyDelete1) Lice. Never had them, thank goodness. But when I Was working in the peds ICU years ago, the worst call I got on a Saturday 12 hour night shift (at 7 pm, right when it started) was that the sibling of the kid I was taking care of that night had lice. We then had to treat this poor kid - intubated, sedated, the whole 9 yards - for lice while the kid was in the ICU. I was wearing a gown, gloves, and hair covering, and STILL treated myself pre-emptively when I got home. (As in, I didn't sleep in my bed until I'd treated my head. Slept that day on the floor then went back in to care for the same kid...) Thank goodness they never showed up on my head!
2) Learning to read. I don't have a memory of when it "clicked" and I am envious of those who do! It's always been there, like Suzanne said. My brother and I were both early readers. The weird thing is, I also cannot remember my parents reading to us, and yet I know they did (there is pictorial evidence).
3) Politics and elections - I think it should be a holiday, too, and I also think that early and mail-in voting should be supported by everyone. We want more people to vote. Sheesh, people.
4) I think Katie's reaction to this is awesome - she is smiling "sidewise, the way the lady did in the picture in the school auditorium, the one they called the Mona Lisa." Katie clearly knew better.
Things I looked up:
* Dock walloper - a dock worker. (McShane worked as a dock walloper when he first came to the US.)
* Roached hair - this one is weird. Like Diane found, all of the links referred to Native American headdresses. However, they all have elements that stand straight up, brush like. So I am thinking that this Mattie Mahoney guy (who was not real, Engie, I went down the same rabbit hole as you...) had brush like hair standing up? But Diane thinks it's brushed BACK and I am on board with that idea, too.
* Tammany Hall (And I'm not even a poli sci major, lol). I found the same info that Engie did.
Me and my long comments, sorry. (Sorry, Engie!)
DeleteThings that stood out to me:
* Francie still seeking comfort - leaning into Sissy when confessing about her horrible days in school. Also, her love of Mr. Jenson's furnace room in the new school, "Francie liked to sit there and enjoy the warmth and watch the orange and blue flames dancing an inch above the bed of small black coals. (He left the furnace door open when the children were drying out.) On rainy days, she left earlier and walked to school slower so that she would be soaking wet and rate the privilege of drying in the furnace room."
* Francie counting the year's passing by the holidays. I loved this. How do you think about the year? When does your year "start"? Mine, like many who are on a school/academic schedule in the US, "starts" in late August/early September, when our contract year starts. I also have a visual of the year in my head, so that when I think of August, I think of it in a spatial relationship to the other months. It's weird, I know. (I do the same thing with numbers...)
* The use of the term "sidewise". It's used to describe Katie's smile when Johnny makes his sexist crack about women voting, and again when Francie sees a drunk Johnny walking home from work. I've always said sideWAYS. Others?
* Katie's response to the day cruise invitation: "'I'm going because I like life,' was her strange reason." Katie, you are such a conundrum. Really. You're so hard with Francie, and then you go and say something like this. So many contradictions here in one person.
* Last one. Hansom cabs. They are the precursor to taxicabs, and apparently were a "disreptuable" option for transportation, vs. four-wheeled cabs (at least in London, see link: https://www.thecarriagefoundation.org.uk/item/hansom-cab-outside-libertys-london). Also, super cool - the driver sat in the back to balance the cab and the people inside could pay through a little trap door. Nifty, huh?
* Everything everyone else has said - the new school, Johnny's up and down parenting, etc. So much in these chapters! Can't wait to keep reading...
Because my husband works in higher ed, we also think of years in terms of the academic calendar. New Year's Eve isn't really a big thing, but Labor Day is the start of the school year!
DeleteI was listening to a podcast today and one of the hosts said sideWAYS, which is how I say it, too. Google is not helping much, but I think they're used interchangeably. I wonder if this is a geographic split where people on the East Coast say one thing and people elsewhere say another or something like that. Anne and I are both here in Wisconsin and we say sideways, my podcast host is from Kansas City. Do any of you regularly use sidewise?
Ah, true, I live in WI *now*, but I grew up on the East coast, and I swear I never heard anyone say "sidewise". I do love that Smith links it with the Mona Lisa's smile, which I suspect most people can bring to mind relatively easily.
DeleteMy digital copy does not have that passages before the title.
ReplyDeleteI loved how the teacher explained to Francie the difference between a lie and a story. That was so beautiful and made so much sense.
"Gently, Teacher explained the difference between a lie and a story. A lie was something you told because you were mean or a coward. A story was something you made up out of something that might have happened. Only you didn't tell it like it was; you told it like you thought it should have happened. "
I also liked the passages where Francie "dreamed" about the future, the jobs she might have or the life that she might live.
And the passage where Johnny promises Francie to walk over and check out the new school and she wakes up early in the morning, waiting for Johnny to wake up, then for Johnny to eat breakfast, then for Johnny to read the paper, etc... that is such a classic scene of childhood, when you get excited about something and you wake up early and cannot wait for it to happen, and the "hours" a stretching like bubble gum ;)
A lot of people wrote they were upset with Johnny for taking so long to go with Francie to check the new school, but I read it the same you did - that Francie was just so excited that everything was taking a long time. Plus, Johnny probably didn't want Katie to think anything was strange about the day!
DeleteI love that quote from chapter 22. Reading it my heart skipped. So lovely. And I remember that feeling too.
ReplyDeleteHere are. Some inserts to your questions:
1. Lice. I had them. My mom was a bit overwhelmed at that time. We had no wash or equipment at home. So only washing my hair. I remember telling her for days that my head itched. And when she checked she said there were just a few flies… We were at ski holiday then. Wehen being back home she had another look. I realized there was some panic then. And the next day she got all the stuff but it didn’t helps. So in the end my hair was cut. And very uneven. Top of my ear one side ending on the chin the other. I was a bit baffled but mom cleaned it up and declared it a trend. I even have a self portrait of that as we had to do it in art class the following week.
Well that said. I wouldn’t recommend. Luckily I never had them again.
2. I loved when I was finally able to read on my own. My first book was Pipi Longstocking in second grade. It wa amazing. Took me forever but the experience was magical. Reading is the best hobby and it does make you smarter. Truly believe it.
3. I can not say I have. May have to think about it longer. Election Day is nothing big over here. More like a chore you need to get done.
4. Didn’t like that either but then - as you said - it was 1920. Am I glad it is different now. Yes, very much. Not sure how I would have reacted having lived during that time back then being confronted with such opinion as Johnny is voicing them.
That special paragraph you mentioned here. I feel like I have read it starting the book. It is only nightstand and I am too lazy to check right now but will do later. I read an ebook version.
I remember reading Pippi Longstocking when I was young and being so annoyed with her! LOL. What was wrong with me for not loving this beloved character?!
DeleteOK, if you say you hated Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle, we're going to have words. (Pippi kind of annoyed me, too...)
Delete