Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 27-32. Let's dive in!
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Synopsis:
Christmas! Francie and Neely get to keep a tree that was chucked at them (!) and Katie is noticeably more excited about her gift from Neely than her gift from Francie. Katie has an epiphany about the importance of education for her kids to get out of their neighborhood. Francie lies and says her name is Mary to get a doll, but it turns out her name IS Mary.
Francie is growing up. Growing up ruins everything. She's really puzzled as to what lesson she is supposed to learn from Joanna, a young single mother. In the end, Francie sees women throwing stones and manure (!) at Joanna and the lesson she really learns is that she hates women.
Random goings on: Henny Gaddis dies. Johnny takes the kids and a tagalong named Tilly to ride a boat in the sea and everyone gets sick, falls in, and/or gets sunburned. Drummer the Horse kicks Willie because Willie is a jerk to him and Evy takes over the milk route while Willie recovers. We get a sneak peek into Francie's diary.
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Things I looked up:
zitful cap (page 206, 208) - Ah, my close reading failed me here. This phrase was actually introduced in Chapter 26 with the line "Mama made her wear her zitful cap (Katie's own name for a wool stocking cap)..." (page 196), so the term was already defined for me. The internetz suggest the term is possibly derived from the German word "zipfelkappe" which is a pointed cap. Any German speakers want to weigh in on this?
scapular (page 209) - By "look up," I mean I asked my husband. This is a religious artifact that typically consists of two small (usually rectangular) pieces of cloth, wood, or laminated paper, a few inches in size, which bears religious images or texts. These are joined by two bands of cloth and the wearer places one square on the chest, rests the bands one each on each shoulder and lets the second square drop down the back.
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| You can buy this Sacred Heart scapular for only $10.95 from The Catholic Company. |
isinglass (page 210) - a kind of gelatin obtained from fish, especially sturgeon, and used in making jellies, glue, etc. and in clarifying ale (I feel like the "etc." is doing a lot in this definition)
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| Creepy Swinborne isinglass trade card available through eBay for the low price of $7.50. |
WWI begins in 1914, so from this we can date that Francie was born around 1901, which aligns with my guess from Week 1's discussion. (Chapter 31)
Castle Clip (page 247) - Named after famous ballroom dancer Irene Castel who popularized the cut in the 1920s, the castle bob is a short-to-medium style hair length with some fringe at the front.
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| Irene Castle, the Castle Bob haircut |
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 27:
"And now get the hell out of here with your tree, you lousy bastards."
Francie had heard swearing since she had heard words. Obscenity and profanity had no meaning as such among those people. They were emotional expressions of inarticulate people with small vocabularies, they made a kind of dialect. The phrases could mean many things according to the expression and tone used in saying them. So now, when Francie heard themselves called lousy bastards, she smiled tremulously at the kind man. She knew that he was really saying, "Good-bye -- God bless you." (page 204)
I think this shows real emotional maturity on Francie's part to figure out what the man selling trees really meant. After all, we know from last week that Francie and Neely are certainly not lousy because Katie's making them smell foul just to avoid this and they may be many things, but their parents were married when they were born, so they are decidedly not bastards. (The phrase "those people" made me a bit uncomfortable in this passage, too.)
Chapter 28:
She wasn't satisfied with the play she saw the following Saturday, either. All right. The long-lost lover came home just in time to pay the mortgage. What if he had been held up and couldn't make it? The landlord would have to give them thirty days to get out - at least that's how it was in Brooklyn. In that month something might turn up. If it didn't and they had to get out, well, they'd have to make the best of it. The pretty heroine would have to get on piece work in the factory; her sensitive brother would have to go out peddling papers. The other would have to do cleaning by the day. But they'd live. You betcha they'd live, thought Francie grimly. It takes a lot of doing to die. (page 220)
My husband actually read this out to me. There's something deeply sad about a tween/young teen thinking about death so frankly.
Chapter 30:
"She has skin like a magnolia petal." (Johnny had never seen a magnolia.) "Her hair is as black as a raven's wing." (He had never seen such a bird.) "And her eyes are deep and dark like forest pools." (He had never been in a forest and the only pool he knew was where each man put in a dime and guessed what the Dodgers score would be and whoever guessed right got all the dimes.) (page 231)
This made me laugh. On one hand, it's desperately sad that Johnny hasn't experienced so many things that I take for granted, but the only pool he knows is a betting pool. I laughed for days.
Chapter 32:
May 28. Carney did not pinch my cheek today. He pinched something else. I guess I'm getting too big to sell junk. (page 244)
Oh, no. What do you think he pinched? Her butt? Boobs? This is Not. Good.
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
Taking in the situation, he threw his wide minister's hat clear across the stage in a dramatic but unseemly gesture...(page 219)
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Questions for you:
1) This is the second week in a row we've read about Francie lying to get material goods. Last week, she said she was going to give a pie to a poor family and this week she lied about her name (I mean, she thought she lied about her name) to get a doll. In both of these cases, it's understandable why Francie would lie, but I keep thinking about how Suzanne talked about how important the theme of shame was in this book. Francie knows she should be ashamed to admit she's poor (so she lies that she's going to give the pie to a poor family) and the book even specifically says "That was not all of Francie's shame" (page 213) as she walked down the aisle the aisle and the girls whispered beggar at her. Why is being poor so shameful in an environment in which everyone else is also poor? Do you think this shame will have long-lasting effects for Francie?
2) Ugh. The amount of misogyny in this book is definitely something I missed when I read it when I was younger. It comes from both men and women. Johnny saying women don't know anything about politics. Women throwing rocks at a single woman. Francie coming out and saying she hated women. Why are women so easily made scapegoats in this community?
3) It seems like these chapters spend a lot of time talking about how growing up is ruining so many things for Francie. Theater isn't the same, Carney pinches something that isn't her cheek, she starts menstruating so she can now get pregnant, and so on. Do you notice any of the text getting less fanciful/childlike as Francie gets older?
4) Katie, oh Katie. I was such a defender early on, but there's so much here that is hard to defend. Her blatant favoritism of Neely (the reaction to the Christmas present, for example), not preparing Francie for starting her period (unforgiveable!), reading Francie's diary and making her cross out drunk and write sick (what even?). I really do think Katie is doing everything she can to hold their family together and that she's a complicated person (imagine how exhausted she must be!), but what do you think is the most egregious parenting failure on her part?
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
August 14 (Chapters 33 - 37)
August 21 (Chapters 38 – 41)
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
Wow, I found this whole section to be utterly depressing and terribly sad. This book is much grimmer than I remember. I recognize that the whole point is that Francie grows up and out, just like the tree, symbolism, but my god this whole section! The throwing of STONES and manure at the 17 year old girl who has a baby, and one of the stones hits the baby, and so the girl "finally" feels the sense of shame she "should have" felt all along? GOOD GOD. The idea being she should just hide herself away and the child away forever because she's BAD, and everyone is so cruel to her. That was really hard to read.
ReplyDeleteAlso hard to read was Francie's diary, where she crossed out drunk and wrote sick. Everything about this section - and when he took the kids fishing - made me so terribly sad. The outing was just pathetic, and then my heart hurt to read that they were playing North Pole for so long, and then they had to open the tin can bank.
DID ANYONE ELSE FEEL INTENSE SADNESS AND DESPAIR, or is it just me?
The misogyny in this book is awful, and I guess it shows what attitudes were like towards women. Hello patriarchy.
I assumed he pinched Francie's butt.
I feel for Katie in that she's just doing her best with her absolutely awful husband, but also, the part about Christmas and how she was so thrilled with Neeley's candy cane...I find her character so unlikeable. But, I guess, if I was in her place I'd probably be pretty unlikeable too.
I don't know, I understand and appreciate the theme of hope and rising up and out, but wow, this is GRIM. It's much grimmer than I remember.
It is SO BLEAK, Nicole! But I guess I do see that Francie (or Betty Smith, I suppose) is trying to find humor (and sometimes beauty) in among all the awfulness. The diary section broke my heart though.
DeleteI don't know. I didn't think it was that bleak? Like, it wasn't that much worse than my own childhood? I think what I'm getting from this is that my parents had a favorite child and picked a favorite child (I'll tell you right now it was NOT me) and that was fine with me because the expectations were low for me. I was poor and we definitely played games about making food stretch (we called it "going camping" instead of "North Pole"). This didn't seem bleak or cruel - just real life.
DeleteThe misogyny in this book is not like my life, though. I think that was the most heartbreaking part for me. Oh, the joy of female friendships is something she's really going to miss out on if she continues hating women!
Oh, Engie. This makes my heart hurt for Little Engie. I'm sorry you had a hard childhood. And I strongly agree about the misogyny, although I do think this happens to a lesser/ different extent today.
Delete1. I think that there are levels of poor, and the goal is always be moving up and “better than” the level below. That’s why Francie feels shame and the other girls make fun of her. Francie is also still getting the hang of writing fiction vs living fiction.
ReplyDelete2. I wish this was just an early 20th century thing. I’ve lost count of the times that other women have said things to me like “you know how women are” or disparaged feminism.
3. Yes! The book “grows up” as Francie grows up. Well, honestly the answer is “no I didn’t notice that very obvious thing until you pointed it out”.
4. I’m still Team Katie, though the Neely favoritism is hard to take. My guess is that Katie gave Francie the exact same preparation for her period that she got. She’s hardly the first or last parent to read a diary, though ew I would never do that. I think the edit of sick for drunk tells us how bad Johnny’s drinking is in a few words instead of going into chapters and chapters worth of examples. Katie is just working with the skills that she has.
I’ve got some sads because we’re at the halfway point of the book!
I am sad about how quickly this is going, too! I want to savor every word of the book.
DeleteI was thinking the same. She saids as much as she was told when starting to menstruate. Its all about: you are a women now. Don't get pregnant.
Delete1. I don't think the Shame that Francie feels is about being poor. She is supposed to feel shame for accepting Charity publicly, in a humiliating way, from a rich person. Smith makes it clear that Francie traded away her Pride for that doll. The children shame her for being a beggar so openly. They are all poor, but they still have their Pride. I think some of her shame/anxiety was tempered when she found out that she didn't lie about her name, but that doll probably never made her feel happy or content when she looked at it.
ReplyDelete2. Hello, patriarchy is right. We all know that women can be their own worst enemy, and it's an ugly reality that has only recently begun to change in the last couple of generations (at least that's been my observation). The brutality of the women against Joanna that ends up bloodying her baby is horrifying. It's perfectly juxtaposed with Katie's admonition to Francie that she learn a lesson from Joanna. Francie is a great observer, and she has a more tender heart than Katie. She has collected enough data at this point and vows to never have a woman for a friend. She fears, mistrusts, and even hates women. She even writes this down.
3. Because the book is mainly told through the eyes of Francie, its narrative is changing. She's starting to see things more as they truly are. Her dad is a drunk; the North Pole game isn't fun--it's pointless starvation; the junk man is a pervert; her mother obviously favours her brother and it's painful. As Nicole points out, there's more of a sense of sadness for the reader. She's starting to feel the crush of poverty and the weight of her circumstances, and the small pleasures of her early childhood aren't enough anymore.
4. Betty Smith commits a huge narrative faux pas (in my opinion) and takes a long, long time for Katie to ruminate in the Christmas chapter about the family's meager situation and how it will ever be better. She finally hits on the key--EDUCATION! Sigh. Which is what her mother basically told her over a decade ago and we read several chapters ago. And she even says so. Apparently, however, Katie had to have a sort of Epiphany on the stairs and we had to read about 2000 words of it. She repeats how she loves her son more and says that it will cause her daughter to turn away from her. But, her son won't, and that's why she loves him more. It's a circular argument that she has no desire or will or ability(?) to fix. She admits that her son is like his father, and she describes him in a way that makes me think she will turn him into his father: "He will cling to me...will never leave me...There is music in him..." Heaven help Neeley if he can't break away from Katie.
Hahaha - Nance, I love your point about Katie being extremely slow to understand about education being the key to rising above their current situation.
DeleteI had totally forgotten about the North Pole game. And how Katie said, "You found the catch in it." Jeez. I think that was one point in Katie's favor, that she would try to turn something so awful into a game for her kids, to help them get through it.
I don't think it's lazy writing on Smith's part at all! I think that's how a first-generation American would stop to think about the world and come to a conclusion. I guess I just think it's the wrong conclusion. Education isn't really the answer - knowing people and making connections is really how you make it. Eh. Different interpretations of the text, I guess!
DeleteNance - YES - Katie saying that Francie will get her education and leave but Neely will never leave. Katie fears being alone, I think. She knows that Francie is not like her - that she will make her way in the world and not fear being alone (because heck, she's been alone her entire life, thanks, Katie). She's becoming her mother in law. Remember how Jimmy's mother did not want to let her sons go? (And yet they all left her and died and/or just died?)
DeleteAnne--Oooh, good point! I had forgotten about Johnny's mother saying that.
DeleteFirst of all, I'm loving this book so much! I read it a long time ago but hardly remember any of it. So many great things in these chapters, although I agree with Nicole that it's all very sad. The misogyny against women by women (there should be a specific name for that- is there?) was shocking and so hard to read- but it's always been a problem. Girls are really mean to other girls. I think it's gotten better in more recent generations, with women realizing we can't have any kind of equality unless we stick together- why should men treat us well if we don't treat each other well? But it's still a problem (not to go off on a weird tangent, but I think it's why so many WOMEN voted for Trump in 2016, UGH.)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, back to the book. I'm still not a fan of Katie. I know she's doing the best she can under the circumstances, but so is Johnny. imagine his life. There was no AA around to help him out of his alcoholism- he wants to do better but everything is stacked against him. He has a good heart though. I guess Katie and Johnny are both doing the best they can under the circumstances.
Poor Francie- growing up is hard. I don't remember personally that shift between innocence and cynicism, but I witnessed it in my own kids. I'm getting worried about Francie's future! I don't remember what happens, but I don't see how she's going to get out of this situation. There was a mention of Francie's "last year of school." And what next? I'm afraid to ask.
I don't remember when I made the shift from innocence to cynicism, either. That's really interesting and I'm going to have to ruminate on it! To a large extent, I'm still relatively childlike in my glee for things I look forward to, so I don't think I'm overly cynical (yet).
DeleteI just feel so badly for Katie. I know she makes mistakes and a lot of them. I just can't imagine being her age and having so many responsibilities and a future that doesn't seem to hold anyway out. I know a lot of people are anti-Katie here and I can understand why, but I mostly want to shake Johnny and tell him to figure it out. I bet if Katie had a true partner, she would be more Picnic Katie than Overworked Katie and things would be different.
Christmas. Katie is so hurtful. How could she make such a fuss over Neely’s gift and not Francie’s? I mean, is she that UNAWARE?
ReplyDeleteI actually laughed when I found out Francie’s real first name was Mary. Also, how weird that all those little Mary’s at the show wouldn’t stand up. I didn’t imagine that many kids being embarrassed by their position in the world; I don’t know about you, but I never felt that proud of where we were economically and I didn’t try to hide it.
What the hell with the neighbors kid who breast fed for that long…and why did everyone know about this? That whole section was super weird. Why did Johnny feel the need to take Tilly out, why did the Mom let her go? Why did you think taking those kids on a boat was a good idea. I’m really questioning Johnny’s cognitive function.
I also had to look up Scapular; after seeing one online, it made sense.
I looked up Castle Clip when Francie wanted one….I could not find a good definition, but I think it meant a Bob Cut? (Wait, you found it for me!! Thanks!)
I can not fathom the neighborhood women being so cruel to young Joanna. Where was the camaraderie? Where is the support? Even Francie noted that one of those women married while pregnant, and still she had zero empathy for Joanna. This part was really hard for me and it’s understandable that Francie would not trust women after witnessing this behavior.
I did notice that the book was getting darker as Francie grew older. I did enjoy her diary entries (even the one meant for her mother. Hint-Hint) and noted that she ‘wondered’ a lot. She wasn’t given very much information and had to wonder who life really worked.
What was the game that Katie invented for the family because of food rations? I don’t have my book in front of me, but it was kind of bright of her (Katie) to play off reality that way, but then Francie points out that there is never a good, happy part of this plan.
I really liked Francie's diary entries, too! It was such a clever way to really show how Francie was changing and what her inner thoughts were. I'm also glad that it didn't become an overused format.
DeleteThe scene with Joanna is so horrific to read. Throwing manure at her! GROWN WOMEN. Who does that? I'll never understand.
This book is definitely more depressing than I remember...but I liked this set of chapters better than last week.
ReplyDeleteA few quotes that stood out:
Chapter 27: When Francie gets the doll by “lying” about her name: “She was paying for the lie and for the doll by giving up her pride.” Reminds me of her “paying” for lying about her address to go to the new school and Katie making her walk the long way home for lunch. She was happy to do it; she didn’t have physical money and felt like she needed to atone for “ill-gotten” gains. Was this a side impact of her being poor; feeling she owed a debt and this shame was her payment.
Chapter 28: It’s so sad to watch her transformation: “Francie, who knew Mama was always right, found out that she was wrong once in a while…The scales at the tea store did not shine so brightly any more and she found the bins were chipped and shabby-looking…Everything was changing. Francie was in a panic. Her world was slipping away from her…She put pennies in the tin-can bank. The junk shop was still there; the stores were all the same. Nothing was changing. She was the one who was changing."
“It takes a lot of doing to die.”
Chapter 29: I could relate to the story of Johnny taking the kids fishing. I’ve made big plans before where I thought everyone would be happy…and then it ended up in shambles. I really related to this story “Why, oh why hadn’t it turned out the way it did in a song?...He couldn’t figure it out – he couldn’t figure it out.”
Elisabeth--I had forgotten about that quote of Johnny's, “Why, oh why hadn’t it turned out the way it did in a song?" So glad you mentioned it. It really encapsulates him, doesn't it? And it highlights the reason why he decides to take the children--even Little Tilly--out for a Day On The Sea. He honestly, truly thinks it's going to be a Defining Moment for his city-dwelling kids who live in a darkish tenement. He'll be a heroic father, whisking them away for a day on the water, getting them some bright sun and fresh, salt-kissed sea air. It'll be just like it is in the songs he sings. He's even dressed up for the occasion, cutting a dashing figure on his boat among the waves.
DeleteOf course he's vastly unprepared for what a day on the water really means, especially accompanied by three young children. He simply has no idea. He lives in an alternate reality because he is a hopeless romantic who doesn't see the world as it is, or when he does, he drinks it away.
So, why was Johnny so invested in Tilly? I really don't understand Johnny or his motivations! Why this child? There must be lots of other children in Brooklyn with terrible siblings and had been "cheated out of something very important and might grow up thwarted." (page 223) Why Tilly?
DeleteNG--It's such a telling and important quote, though, isn't it? That Johnny worried Tilly had been "cheated out of something very important and might grow up thwarted"? Taken out of context, that quote could certainly describe Francie in myriad ways. Johnny tries to rescue Francie from Being Thwarted by her terrible school situation. He tries to even the score with Katie's sometimes cold and Neeley-slanted parenting by spending more special time with Francie and showing that he understands her. In Johnny's mind perhaps he's compensating for some deficiencies with parenting Francie; perhaps he's even trying to make up for Tilly being overshadowed by her brother who stole her very food as an infant. The symbolism there is, I think, huge. Whereas Gussie stole the very mother's milk from Tilly, Neeley has "stolen" a mother's love from Francie.
DeleteI had not thought of Tilly/Gussie as analogous to Francie/Neely, though it makes total sense. But now I am seeing the entire outing in a new light. The fish (which are already off!) flopping to the floor of the train. The children vomiting while Johnny pretends not to notice. Tilly, unmoved by her experience. Oh my goodness. What does that say for poor Francie and Johnny? No matter what he does, he cannot make things truly better for her?!?!
DeleteGrowing up is painful! I know it was for me, so it's not surprising it is also very painful and hard and dark and difficult for Francie. She has a hard life: living in poverty, a hard mother who doesn't really like her, a drunk for a father, being responsible for so many things at such a young age, not having friends BECAUSE of who her father is... ugh. She has such a tender, good heart and it's difficult to see her recognizing the true reality of everything happening in her life. She doesn't always come to the right conclusion (see Joanna and deciding she hates women because society hates women), but I love being inside her mind.
ReplyDelete1) I think Nance hit the nail on the head: being poor isn't what's shameful, accepting charity is. I do think she DOES feel a lot of shame about being poor and the way that has made her life hard, but I think the people around her feel that not accepting charity and maintaining your pride is the most important thing.
2) Women are ALWAYS the scapegoats. Has it gotten better in recent years? Maybe. But we're just dealing with different kinds of problems these days. And these are just the white experiences we're learning about! I just HATED the scene between Joanna and the women throwing rocks (!!!) at her. Like, that's awful on it's own but SHE HAD A BABY WITH HER YOU MONSTERS.
3) Francie is definitely learning the reality of life - the chapter with her diary entries was so sad.
4) Katie has had so many parenting failures. I am trying to be kind toward her when I can, as she's still SO YOUNG and has two kids she's trying to raise with a drunk for a husband. She's probably exhausted and doesn't have the support she needs (or maybe doesn't know how to reach out for support?). The North Pole game was really sad to learn about, but it also made me a little tender toward Katie. That has to be so hard, and she's trying to put on a brave face for her kids. I think her most egregious parenting fail, though, is her preference toward Neeley. It makes me so sad for Francie that she KNOWS her mom prefers her brother to her.
YOU MONSTERS indeed! That was so awful! Where is the compassion????
DeleteAre you telling me that all of you people with siblings didn't know who the preferred sibling was? I am frankly SHOCKED by this. My husband and his siblings know exactly who the favorite in his family is and I certainly do, as well. That doesn't mean our parents didn't love all their children, but I'm finding it hard to believe that it's not more ubiquitous than you're all making it seem.
DeleteI guess Katie's favoritism doesn't really stack up for me as much as her scaring Francie so much about the vaccination that Francie gets an infection but feels like she can't come to her with it. I think Katie has definitely done something wrong in making sure her little girl can come to her when she's HURT. Maybe some of that is the favoritism, but I think it's deeper than that.
I really do not think that my parents had/have favorites among us siblings. Sure sometimes it felt like it when we didn't get what we wanted but overall I do not think so. It maybe a different kind of love but love nonetheless. I am very surprised, that it seems that way in other families and that the kids actually know. It looks like I am very lucky.
DeleteEach of me and my siblings believed ourselves to be the least favorite for my mom. I mean, I would definitely say I was my father's favorite because I was his only child. As far as my mother's three other children, though, they fight like absolute cats about who was the favorite.
DeleteSuzanne--I agree that Katie is stretched thin. Her resources of strength, love, and stamina are often at the breaking point, and that's a good point. She's only human. She sees potential in her son that she once saw in her husband, and maybe she sees an opportunity to make him into a better version of Johnny--the man that she hoped her husband could have been. Hard to resist, that.
ReplyDeleteI hate the argument that any child needs more or less love than any other. Probably because that was used often in my own family. Just because a child is tough or less of a problem or has it all together doesn't mean she can be ignored or left unparented in favour of another. Kids need their parent(s). Period. I'm sure a lot of parents tell themselves that, and undoubtedly that's what Katie is telling herself. It may make a parent feel a little better to justify it, but it's still not okay.
A kid's privacy is still an issue today. I know you have a pre-teen daughter. Would you/are you tempted to read her diary just to be sure she's okay?
Nance, I'm sorry you dealt with that kind of thinking in your family. No wonder it resonates with you. And to be clear, I don't condone or agree with the idea that any child could be so strong they don't need love. What Katie is doing is terrible. It would have an irrevocable impact on a child, with a cascade of emotional repercussions. But it feels honest to me, as awful as it is. I know favoritism. And I know that people are complicated and have failings right alongside their strengths, and this is one of Katie's MAJOR failings. I do think she tries to show up for Francie in other ways. Not to make up for the lack of love (she seems pretty nonchalant about loving Neely more!), but to do her duty to Francie. (Of course -- a parent's duty to her child should ALSO include loving her.)
ReplyDeleteYour question about whether I would read my kid's diary is such an interesting one! My husband and I talk about this sometimes, and the answer is: I want to unequivocally say that I would never read her diary. But I am fortunate to have never (yet?) been in the position where I felt that measure was necessary. So I don't know for sure, I guess. I grew up in a family where privacy was highly valued. I could have left my diary open on my bed and my mother would never have read it. That kind of freedom over my own thoughts is precious to me, and so I feel angry on Francie's behalf. Not only was her privacy violated, but she was made to change the written record of her observation of the world. If I did take the step of reading my kid's diary, and saw that she had grossly misrepresented things... well. It would be hard to not try to at least discuss with her where those views were coming from. But in this case, we the reader KNOW that Francie's perception is accurate. Why would her mother water down her experience? It puts a higher value on her mother's desires/needs than it does on Francie's experience of the world.
(Sidebar: Diary/personal journal is different from texts, emails, and social media posts. Those are not private, which my husband and I have made clear to our kid even though she's only beginning to dabble in texting.)
Yikes, didn't do the reading... but really did enjoy all the thoughts and got a special chuckle out of your tongue-in-cheek vending of artifacts!
ReplyDeleteThey seemed like very reasonable prices to me!
DeleteSuzanne--Your insight about Katie forcing Francie to "change the written record of her observation of the world" is brilliant. That's really the worst part, isn't it? That reaches beyond a violation of privacy and into something far uglier and more of an intimate violation. It's a form of gaslighting, really. It also seems to be the action of a person flailing for control, and we know how much Katie needs to control her household. She's the single parent, for all intents and purposes, and it's no easy role.
ReplyDeleteThank you Engie for giving a summery every week.It is helpful to know what exactly we are talking about. Before I answer your questions here are some thoughts regarding your thinking.
ReplyDeleteAs for the German. Well, I would have never made the connection between fitful cap and Zopfelkappe. Also Zipfelkappe is not really a word we use (at least not today). But then all the German words that are used in this book are bit off. Not sure. If that is due to the time I was written, some expat slang that happened in NY or if Smith just guessed.
I was wondering too what Carney. pinched and I immediately thought breasts. Definitely not good. I fear ist getting worse though.
1) I feel like the community is not really close knit and everyone just tries to get ahead not matter what. So when someone aka Francie is bolder than them they scream shame. In doing so they elevate themslefs above the „poor“ aka Francie and her family. It feels like everyone is kicking below in trying to get ahead and above. And as for Francie I feel like she doesn’t care too much what other people think of her. She feels rather happy with herself. And she did say those Hail Mary’s to make up for her lie...
2) I had the same feeling but then I wondered. We read it with our knowledge. With our way of seeing the world. But what if we look at it through the eyes of the time it was written. In actually pointing out this behavior – which I assume no one did in 1945 – isn’t it actually rather feminist of Smith? Isn’t it maybe that by addressing this in her book, she actually denounces the conditions. I have no clue if that makes sense or is even correct but I always keep wondering when reading older books. Mayn things I would not read if they had been written in the past 5 years but they are classics for a reason. It is a glimpse in the time the were written. Any thoughts? Wasn’t anyone of thee bookclubs members a researcher for women’s rights?
3) I haven’t really seen any change in the writing. But I will keep an eye out.
4) I don’t know. It seems like most of you dislike Katie so much. I really don’t care much about her. For me she is just a side character describing how Francies character cane to be. Sure she is not a very nice mother. But then again we are talking 1945. Children were more or less left alone and so much pampered. Sure it is not nice that Neely is getting more love. But then he is a boy and again back then boys were more appreciated. So for me to looks like the is just a way it was. Not saying that I like it.
I haven’t written down any quotes. Sorry.
Interesting about the German in this book! I also wonder if it's related to being 100+ years ago or if it's just Katie's own interpretation of a language she didn't speak or write. I want to know more about this and might dig into it for next week to see if I can find more details about it! Thanks for weighing in on that - your expertise is appreciated!
DeleteIs it control in general? Or control of how her family is perceived? So she controls Francie's way of recording the world...perhaps thinking that would "stick" if Francie went so far as to talk to someone outside of the family about how frequently Johnny is 'sick'? (That is, Katie doesn't want others to think of Johnny as a drunk, because of how it reflects on their family, even though, hello, everyone KNOWS he's a drunk?)
ReplyDelete1. Why is being poor so shameful? I think, for me, it's like someone else said - it's not being poor that's so shameful. It's receiving charity for being poor. The doll. The pie.
ReplyDelete2. The misogyny is awful (I thought Carney pinched her rear, btw), but agh, the internalized misogyny. That awful chapter on poor Joanna... The descriptions of how women go through so many of the same things, and suffer (at the time) the same things, and how they STILL turn against each other. I was particularly struck at the end of that chapter, when "the boy's" mother and sisters tell him "Oh, women are tricky. We know. We are women."
3. The passage of time was so clear in these chapters. We go from Francie loving Christmas and the dolls and the sleds and the tossing of the trees... to the loss of innocence, and childhood. The contrast between Chapter 27 - and the descriptions of the store windows - to Chapter 32, when things start to lose their shine (literally) is astonishing to me. Does anyone else remember those shifts when they were 12-13? Ah, puberty... But I hadn't noticed the change in tone until Engie pointed it out. Thanks, Engie! :)
This comes up again in Chapter 28, when Francie is thinking of Henny finally dying, and that "Now the long time had come." Things that we never think will happen - that seem so far off in the future - and when they happen, it just seems to disrupt the "normal" flow of things.
4. Parenting failure by Katie? Not to realize that even if she can't understand Francie, she should at least love her.
Quotes & things that stood out:
The doomed outing. Johnny definitely wants to "make it up to Tilly" because of Gussie. I can't believe more of you haven't commented on Gussie. I am just so, well, revolted by the whole thing. Maybe it's because for me, words on pages then transform into images in my head, so when I read about Gussie nursing *standing up*, like a man smoking a "fat pale cigar", well, it's a vivid image that just, well, ew. Definitely agree that Johnny sees Francie in Tilly.
* I looked up spool-heeled slippers (they come up in the first chapter, when Flossie is wearing them Christmas Eve). They are heels with a narrow heel that seem to widen a bit towards the bottom. My goodness, they look uncomfortable. ;)
* "She does not understand me. All she understands is that I do not understand her." THIS. I had missed this sentence until I was going back and taking notes (#nerd), but I think for me this is the key to how Katie views Francie. She just. doesn't. get. her. I suspect at least some of us have felt that bafflement of close - and loved - family members who just don't get us (or, we don't get them...or, well, both).
* "They sounded like words that came in a can; the freshness was cooked out of them." I have felt this way about my (academic) writing many, many times.
I'm surprised that Gussie hasn't come up, either. I think that the image of the mother blackening her breast and making a horrible face on it is going to haunt my dreams. So upsetting!
DeleteThe more I read this book, the more I think about the internalized misogyny and what sorts of lessons I probably took from it when I was a young teen. I imagine I just sort of accepted it, the way I accepted that Francie got an extra penny for having her cheek pinched as part of a girl's life.
I have wonderful female friends and I enjoy time in female spaces, but I wonder if reading books like this when I was younger made me more hesitant to reach out to other girls/women. Interesting thing to think about and note as we continue further.
1. I agree that the shame stems from accepting charity more than and admission of poverty. And this is still prevalent even today. I know too many people who have refused to register for food stamps or accept help because they view it as beneath them. They aren't lazy! They aren't freeloaders! They work hard for what they do have and no one is giving them a handout! Charity still carries a baffling stigma. I mean, it's not really baffling in this society. (Nobody wants to work!)
ReplyDelete2. All Francie has ever seen is women being hateful or indifferent. I agree with Tobia that Smith is calling this behavior out by having Francie sort of denounce it. Francie cannot be friends with other women because then she will be shamed (there it is again) into accepting and even participating in behaviors she finds wrong. There are no women (except SISSY) to teach her she doesn't have to perform for the fools around her.
3. I'm so glad you asked this question! The various POV shifts have ramped up, and I realized it's because as Francie matures she begins understanding the position of other people in this world. She can empathize even more and for a myriad of experiences. From the tree man's POV on page 201, to the long passage with Katie on 204, to what had happened to Joanna's man on 234, we are being given perspectives Francie might begin understanding and that might begin shaping her in different ways.
4. I don't want to dislike Katie. I certainly get where she's coming from. But Katie, you can do better. This life you've been given doesn't excuse your behavior. It explains it, but doesn't excuse it. That goes for you, too, Johnny. Life isn't romantic? Neither is the sea, for real. I do appreciate that Katie is doing what she believes is best with what she has. Katie has resigned to what she has and Johnny has resigned to what he doesn't.
In true fashion for parts you hate but I love NGS, Gussie was my favorite part in this reading. That kind of surrealism and absurdity is right up my alley.
"Remember Joanna. Remember Joanna." (Page 235) I think this is as much for the reader as for Francie. I feel like it's foreshadowing. This experience was a turning point.
When Francie describes how Evy even puts into her stories what people are thinking (page 238) - it mirrors how we are getting more and more POV shifts. Also, I totally get Francie keeping a journal because she feels like she's supposed to (page 241). I feel the same way, Francie, and sometimes I also feel like it's a burden. But it's funny, how the first few chapter were a detailed day-to-day that we, the reader, find fascinating and very important but as Francie grows up, she begins to feel bored and like "nothing ever happens." WE know the "nothing" is equally or maybe even more important.
You are right. Sissy is the only woman who is not conforming to the standards. She is the odd one out that has the most influence on Francie. It is a character trait to be admired.
DeleteAngry--So true, what you wrote in #4! Katie is like the dog who chased the car and then, surprise! caught it, and now has to figure out what to do with it. She had the thrill of the chase, but now she has the prey and it's not thrilling at all. She got stuck, and being practical, is making the best of it. Johnny, on the other hand, is impractical and romantic. He refuses to accept his life, so he drinks and fantasizes to escape it. Katie has turned hard and cold, but she is responsible. Johnny remains selfish and childish, and so he is irresponsible. Both need to do much better, but at least Katie is a provider.
DeleteOh, I think the Gussie part was an interesting look into an alternate household, but it was just so vividly written that I found it horrifying like a scene written by Stephen King just plopped into the middle of this book!
DeleteI know that I'm a Katie apologist, but I don't think it's fair to say that Sissy is the ONLY woman who's providing Francie with a good role model about how to perform womanhood. There's Evy and her teachers, including her piano teacher. Admittedly, the list is pretty small, but who here had a super large list outside of their own family and teachers?
Popping in late, but better late than never! As an aside, I mentioned that we were doing this to a coworker who is a reader, and also told him this was basically my favorite book, and he got it from the library, read it and LOVED IT! FYI - he is a nearly 50 yo man! He loved the writing style, loved Francie, and I have given him the link to this post in case he wants to comment. Oh, also I guess I assumed the pinch was a butt pinch, not a boob pinch.
ReplyDelete1. I think her shame will last. I think it is not only the doll or lying (and/or being poor) but also Katie making her change "drunk" to "sick" is probably not helping. So it's not just about money shame, it is life shame.
2. I think women being scapegoats is unfortunately just a sign of the times. It is easy to look at it now and see clearly that there is a lot of misogyny, but in the 20s, or even when Smith wrote the book in the 40s, this was often par for the course. I liken it to traveling to some countries, where the men still have more power, and I have to sometimes refrain myself from telling them off (one place that comes to mind is Egypt, where the women worked while the men played chess and drank tea and hissed and stared at me when I walked past) and remember that this is still their way, even if it is not mine.
3. I agree that the book is getting less fanciful/childlike, but it makes sense since Francie is the narrator that we would see the world through her eyes and she is getting less fanciful herself (although she really is STILL a child!)
4. I do not want to make excuses for Katie, but someone does have to be the disciplinarian. This often is my role in certain circumstances (a comanager in the past was so fun, and I was the hard a$$) so I can relate! As for playing favorites, I think only a favorite would say that parents don't play favorites. All parents have one child they favor/relate to more/feel needs them more etc. Francie is the older, more self sufficient, reliable child and often the mother will tend to lean more toward the one that needs her more. That is just a fact of life. I don't blame Katie in particular for that.
My husband is reading it for the first time, too! He's enjoying it and has so many questions and comments - it's lovely to know the book works across sex and age.
DeleteI wonder what the messages about sex roles and responsibilities will be read into YA novels in 100 years. In the past, I've written a lot of words about how the parents seem to disappear in a lot of modern YA novels and how unlike my own reality that is, but maybe that is how it is these days. This book is definitely making me think that young people need to be writing about their own lives RIGHT NOW!!
I am just blown away by hw much of this book sort of wove itself into the fabric of my worldview. I really thought I was going to have to give Minnie the Gussie for awhile there.
ReplyDeleteI made no comment on extended breastfeeding! Just the way it ended! Egads!
DeleteI am starting to think that perhaps I have NOT read this book before, though I was sure I had. I remember nothing. Which is good in a way because it is blowing me away. Katie continues to anger me, as does Johnny, but I know they are both doing the best that they can. Francie is losing the magic of the world, just as her grandma said would happen, and why she needed to have an imagination from a young age to sustain her.
ReplyDeleteWe were pretty broke growing up, and one year the school gave away their Christmas tree before winter break, and I brought it home on the school bus. Can you imagine? Nice bus driver probably helped me get it on and off. I was about 6 at the time. My mom later said it was really hard knowing that everyone knew we needed a charity tree, and truthfully, she could have afforded a tree that year, but she couldn't break my heart that way, I was so proud of having brought it home. Imagine how bedraggled it must have been, being pulled on and off of the bus like that. Francie's tree was probably pretty bedraggled too. My mom said it lost so many pins, you could hear it. Like, 'plink, plink, plink, WHOOSH' as they fell. I wish I had a picture!
How big was this tree you carried home on the bus? That's crazy that they let it happen like that! It's such a compelling you scene you write, though, how proud you were and how embarrassed your mom was!
DeleteI looked up isinglass and zitfulcap too!
ReplyDeleteI loved the bit about the tossing of the Christmas trees - how Francie hauls her brother up and how there is such symbolism in the united front they present when that tree is chucked at them. I find it so interesting that Francie doesn't seem to resent her brother for being her mom's favorite child.
1) I have to be honest - when Francie lied to get the doll, I thought, "Oh really, again? Is this how she is really going to be?" I feel like if it happens a third time in the book, I might roll my eyes. Not that I don't feel bad for her wanting something so badly and the way it illustrates the tension between wanting something and pride in not asking for anything. It's just as a plot point, it felt repetitive. But then when does a repetitive plot point become a theme?
2) This section of chapters made me realize that there are no happy women in this book. (yet) And there are no friendly women. Even from the beginning, Katie steals Johnny from her best friend. And Francie even writes "As long as I live, I will never have a woman for a friend." I kind of wonder what that bleak social loneliness is about? And also - all the marriages in the book are kind of ... not great. But maybe that's just the nature of being working class poor and constantly stressed?
3) I don't know if I notice the text getting less fanciful, but I do wonder at her shorter diary entries. "North Pole" "Papa's sick" I wonder why she keeps writing if she doesn't have a lot to say... does she feel like she needs to fill up the diary? Or does she feel a compulsion to write? Or maybe she does indeed have a lot to write, just not the time.
4) Oh Katie.. I feel like she comes of more harshly to the reader than Johnny, even though Johnny is in many ways the bigger failure of a parent. Is this part of the misogyny? Johnny still is considered a good parent because he tries to be in a good mood. But Katie, it feels like she is faulted for not smiling more.
One of my favorite quotes, from when Francie went to see the play:
"Francie couldn't understand why the heroine didn't marry the villain. It would solve the rent problem and surely a man who loved her so much that he was willing to go through all kinds of fuss because she wouldn't have him wasn't a man to ignore. At least, he was around while the hero was off on a whild-goose chase. "
Francie... such a practical unromantic soul.
Early on in Chapter 32, Francie talks about why she started a diary - because "fictional heroines kept them and filled them with lush sighing thoughts," but you're right that she didn't really talk much about why she felt like she had to continue. Maybe it's part of the frugality that she was raised with - you have to use up every little bit of everything? That's an interesting question to think about.
ReplyDeleteFrancie's practical side in that scene is so heartbreaking. It's hard to die. Just get married because then you have twice as much income. She's just so young to even have to consider any of this!
When I was reading this and came across scapular, I thought: Engie is going to look that word up I bet! I knew what it is since I was raised Catholic and I am fairly certain that my extremely Catholic parents both wear one!
ReplyDeleteAlso, I had Phil read this years ago and he liked it. We were both going to read a favorite book of the other person, so I had him read this and he had me read "Confederacy of Dunces" which I abandoned because I hated it to so so so much and could not go on! I have read other books upon his request, like Bonfire of the Vanities which I did enjoy. Could NOT handle Confederacy, though!