Welcome to our book club for A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Today we'll be discussing Chapters 38-41. Let's dive in!
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Synopsis:
Now that Johnny isn't bringing in his sporadic income, there are money woes in the Nolan household. McGarrity the saloon keeper gives Francie and Neely jobs. Francie and Neely are confirmed, a teacher tells Francie that writing about Johnny is sordid, Katie has a baby girl they call Laurie. Katie's still working hard and Francie overhears people at the saloon talking about the news when she's working in the saloon.
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Things I looked up:
rummy (page 305) - Hmmm...McGarrity says Johnny wasn't a rummy, but every definition I can find of this term make it seem like a synonym for a drunk or boozehound. Do you suppose McGarrity means Johnny wasn't a sloppy drunk? This seems wrong, too, based on some of Francie's diary entries.
bands in the baby's layette (page 339) - Hilariously, my husband didn't even know what a layette was. I don't know what these "bands" are and when I google it, it just gives me Nirvana and Metallica onesies. Hey, moms, what does this mean? Laurie's got four of them.
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| Surely this is not what Katie was having Laurie wear. Note to self: buy this for the next baby you meet. |
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Select quotes (I'm limiting myself to no more than one a chapter!):
Chapter 38:
McGarrity was a man with a great sin on his soul. He hated his children. His daughter, Irene, was Francie's age. Irene was a pink-eyed girl and her hair was of such a pale red that it, too, could be called pink. She was mean and stupid. She had been left back so many times that at fourteen she was still in the sixth grade. His son, Jim, ten years old, had no outstanding characteristics excepting that his buttocks were always too fat for his breeches. (page 306)
I have been defensive of people who have criticized Smith's writing because I generally think it's sparkling, but this paragraph has just not aged well. Focusing on how children LOOK as a way to summarize their character is just not okay with me. Ugh. Hey, not all of us are born beautiful, you know?
Chapter 39:
Francie began to understand that her life might seem revolting to some educated people. She wondered, when she got educated, whether she'd be ashamed of her background. Would she be ashamed of her people; ashamed of her handsome papa who had been so lighthearted, kind and understanding; ashamed of brave and truthful Mama was so proud of her own mother, even though Granma couldn't read or write; ashamed of Neely who was such a good honest boy? No! No! If being educated would make her ashamed of what she was, then she wanted none of it. (page 325)
The scene with the teacher criticizing Francie's work absolutely infuriated my husband.
(In grad school, before we were dating, Dr. BB and I went to be trained to do scoring for standardized tests for K-12 students. There was a real great response about "where do you want to live when you grow up?" that was all about how the student wanted to be someplace safe, where his mom would not be hurt, they would not have to worry about money or drug dealers, and there wouldn't be bars on the windows. It was very evocative and when asked what it should be scored from 0-6, Dr. BB and I gave it 4s or 5s or something like that. We were told it was a 2. It focused too much on what wouldn't be in the house and not what would be. Meanwhile, the essay about the ski chalet in Vale Vail was a 6. I have rarely thought Dr. BB was going to punch someone as I did that day. If anyone asks what it means that standardized tests are classist, here's your example.)
Chapter 40:
They worked a while in silence before Floss spoke again. "I wonder are they worth it? The children, I mean."
Mrs. Gaddis thought of her dead son and her daughter's withered arm. She said nothing. She bent her head over her kitting. She had come around to the place where she dropped a stitch. She concentrated on picking it up. (page 341)
Oh. Mrs. Gaddis is over here breaking my heart.
Chapter 41:
Yes, the world was changing rapidly and this time she knew it was the world and not herself. She heard the world changing as she listened to the voices. (page 346)
Have you ever felt this way? Like you know that history is happening right this second?
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Things I noticed, but don't have anywhere else to put them:
Johnny died on Christmas Day! I don't know why this seems so significant to me, but I'm going to keep an eye out for how Christmas is treated throughout the rest of the book.
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Mentions of the word hat (I can't help myself):
NONE!
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Questions for you:
1) There are pages devoted to McGarrity, the saloon keeper. Why? (Also, is anyone else vaguely worried about what's going to happen him when Prohibition is passed in just a few short years?)
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| Saloon, 1910, Ridgewood (Queens, not Brooklyn, but I did my best) |
2) In the beginning of Chapter 39, Smith introduces three wishes that children being confirmed would make on their confirmation day - one is an impossible wish, another a wish that you could make come true for yourself, and the third to be a wish for when you grew up. What are your three wishes?
3) What's going on with Sissy? Is she pregnant? I find this character very perplexing and feel like "what's going on with Sissy?" could/should be a question every week.
4) Francie overhears people talking about so many things in the saloon - Prohibition (1920), women's suffrage (1920), World War I (the US gets involved in April 1917 and Laurie was born in May 1916!), automobiles (Ford's assembly line started rolling at the end of 1913), moving pitchers (!) - I like the alternate spelling. Do you feel like it WAS an unusual time of change? Do you think we're in one of those times now?
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Were there any quotations or lines that particularly stood out to you? Did you have to look anything up?
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Upcoming schedule:
August 28 (Chapters 42 – 45)
September 4 (Chapters 46 – 51)
September 11 (Chapters 52 – 56)
September 18 (entire book wrap up)
I liked this section for the most part. I found it interesting that Katie said she appreciated Francie, and Francie thought that made up for her not loving her as much as Neeley. I also started thinking how it would be for the baby. The image of Katie so pregnant, scrubbing and taking in laundry and doing everything in her power just to feed her family is so wrenching.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Katie and Francie both said they hated women is so sad to me. Then again, thinking about the women stoning the unmarried mother in the section previous might have me feeling the same way.
I did find the part about the saloon keeper interesting, how he had lots of money but he was unhappy with this life. It was unsettling to read, but interesting. I did think about prohibition.
I think Sissy is just really happy and contented, now that she has her longed-for baby. After so many pregnancies that ended in death, she must feel relief and happiness.
Absolutely we are living in historic times. I thought that many times during the pandemic. I'm thinking it right now with the fires. I think all the time what it will be like to look back on the time I'm living through. Sometimes I think about the historic events that have happened in our lifetime - perhaps the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, or 9/11 - and I remember what it felt like to be in that time. The pandemic is going to be a huge thing to look back on - it already is!
Interesting that you went with the pandemic and wars and 9/11 as the historic times. I think that those are things that have happened before in history, but changes in technology are crazy right now. I feel like AI is the equivalent of the cotton gin. Hm. I wonder who will be proven correct on this!
DeleteOh, is that what you meant? I guess I didn't understand the question. In my defense I was writing this at 4:45 am! Sure, I'll go with the technology being the biggest change. Although I still do think that the pandemic and 9/11 created massive step changes to the way we live our lives.
DeleteNo, you're absolutely right to point out things like the pandemic and 9/11 and all these horrific weather and climate related events. That's why I asked the question! I was thinking AI, but I'm not a futurist - your ideas are as good, if not better, than mine!
DeleteThe pandemic is exactly where my mind went to because not only did it affect every single person in some way, but it also brought about a ton of changes to our society - like how most companies now have a work-from-home policy where before, it was really hard to find a job offering WFH even just a few days a week! (And bad changes, like learning how many people in our lives are anti-vax, lol.)
DeleteJust recently the husband and I talked about it. I mentioned some of those things Nicole said about historic events. The husband however said the pandemic will have a much more global inpact as every single person on this planet was involved. Weather incidents, political uproar and such is usually a geographic/local districted event. So interesting.
DeleteI like the contrast of the McGarrity chapter. Here he is, a man with a good business, a family, and plenty of money, but he was jealous of Johnny's life. McGarrity knew that the Nolans were extremely poor, that Katie had to work so hard to make up for Johnny's drunkenness. But he also knew that Francie and Neeley made him proud and that the children adored him. McGarrity didn't have that life, the one he dreamed of. His money gave him a lot of things, but it didn't give him that, and when he tried to buy a little piece of it by employing Francie and Neeley, hoping they'd chat him up like Johnny did, his money failed him.
ReplyDeleteHands up for all who think that Miss Garnder is really a Mrs. Gardner, the English teacher Betty Smith probably had who said those exact things to her in grade school! That spelling is just too suspicious to me. Anyway, as a retired English and Creative Writing teacher, that chapter made me crazy. The sappy play that Beatrice Whatever came up with sounded too precious even for Disney.
I was rooting for Francie--the way she said her goodbye to Miss Garnder. Civil, polite, and not equivocating. Francie had been through way too much life to deal with oblivious women like her. She could never understand, so why waste time? Francie was moving on. I do think it was interesting that, at the ice cream shop, Francie realized that she could have had friends all along in class; however, friends do take time, and she has precious little of that.
Sissy--She looks different to Francie now. I wonder if that is because Sissy is finally content. She's settled down now, she has her baby, and she's grown up. Before, she was on the prowl and flirtatious, looking for someone all the time. Now, she found the man who "gave her a baby" and she doesn't have to be out there on the hunt. She can be a wife and mother.
I wanted to say a little bit about Katie and Francie's relationship. It's obvious that Francie is starting to understand her mother quite a bit more, and she is learning what their relationship is all about. She knows her mother will always favour Neeley, but she feels needed by her mother, and that's just as good for Francie. There's a certain bond between them--almost as women--that makes a closeness: they understand the sense of responsibility and duty; they share strength and resilience. Certainly, Francie had this thrust upon her. Neeley could have had a similar character, but because of Katie's favouritism (and being the youngest), he was spared. But Katie recognizes how much she needs Francie, and Francie feels honored and closer to her mother because of it. That's a lot for a child her age, but her whole life has been a lot.
Finally--I found the mentions of Johnny in this section very loving and poignant. How he thought ahead to provide Francie's graduation flowers. How it was he who answered Katie's prayers. How Mary Rommely spoke of him. And how Francie loved him so fiercely that she hoped his death was a dream after all.
I think you're a chapter or two ahead of us on Francie's school, so I feel like I've have some foreshadowing of what's to come!
DeleteI'm really fascinated by the McGarrity chapters. It's interesting to think about the life that Francie could have had if she'd been born into a different family. Would she still be Francie if she'd had McGarrity as a father or would she be just like his daughter? I also wonder about that digression and if there's more to McGarrity's story as we read the rest of the books. It just seemed like a lot of time dedicated to him if we're just going to drop that story!
Oh, no, am I ahead? Terribly sorry. The last thing I want to do is spoil a book for anyone. Please feel free to delete my comment if you feel it's damaging anyone's enjoyment. I'm so embarrassed. I must have written the chapters down incorrectly.
DeleteOh, no worries! I think you're just a chapter ahead! There were no major spoilers, I promise you!
DeleteYes, Nance, the spelling of Garnder bothered me too! It didn't occur to me Smith might have been doing a little tongue-in-cheek but I think you are probably right. "Of course it's not you, Mrs. Gardner, it's GarNDer, it's a name from my old neighborhood, a totally made up character, yep, you betcha." LOL.
DeleteI'm astonished by how little I remember this book. I read it in my late teens, and I liked it but I don't remember a single thing- including the fact that the baby is named Laurie, and that's my sister's name! Same spelling and everything.
ReplyDeleteKatie continues to redeem herself in my eyes. The fact that she is doing everything possible to make sure Francie remains in school! I love the way their relationship is developing. I love Francie's role in Katie's labor, and how Katie sends her out at the last minute to spare her the worst of it.
The sections with McGarrity are so sad! He's so, so lonely. And, he saved the day by offering Francie and Neely jobs. Johnny continues to redeem himself as well, posthumously. If it weren't for his friendliness to McGarrity, McGarrity wouldn't have thought twice about the Nolans.
I also think Sissy just seems different because she's settled down. She doesn't have to wear perfume or be flirtatious because she finally has her baby and is done with that part of her life. Of course, as I said I can't remember any of what happens, so I guess we'll find out!
I think the time Francie is living in is much more turbulent than our times. But maybe that's just my perspective, and someone looking back on our times would see it differently.
I'm astonished by what i don't remember, too! I thought the baby's name was Annie, which I guess it is, but I didn't remember that they called her Laurie.
DeleteThe book does indicate that Sissy is finally content with her life and that's the change Francie noticed, but I'm going to be keeping a sharp eye on Sissy. I think there's more going on!
Jenny, I didn't remember that Francie's sister is named Laurie and that's my mom's name! (My mom and your sister have the same "Laurie" spelling!) And I only read this book 5 years ago, hahaha.
DeleteFirst off, I can not figure out what bands are in regards to a layette. I mostly think of layettes are sort of a gown for an infant? We had some that had some elastic at the bottom so it would kind of gather below the babies legs. No idea how bands would be used and certainly not 3 bands?
ReplyDelete1. McGarrity - I think his section has showed us that Katie and Johnny had a better marriage than we might have thought otherwise. They would talk to each other and could convince each other of things. And McGarrity is keep the Nolans afloat by paying the kids.
2. Man we did NOT get 3 wishes when we were confirmed! I got cheated! ;) The wildfires are heavy on my mind so my impossible wish would be for them to all cease immediately and forever going forward. This is not possible or realistic, though. I'd also like everyone in the world to believe in climate change and for something to be done.
3. I also wondered if Sissy is pregnant but I think she's just happy and settling into life now that she has a baby.
4. That was a crazy period of time with so much change. I think of my grandma who is 100 and all the change she has seen in her lifetime. She was taken to school in a horse and buggy as a child and now she emails and is on facebook! She has really taken all of the changes in stride but it's kind of stunning to think of everything she has lived through!
Lisa--Your grandmother and my mother (93)! My mom lived on a farm and had no indoor plumbing for a long, long time. Now she's got an iPad and texts her sister along with her grand- and great-grandchildren.
DeleteI left a comment about the bands down below.
We should all be as flexible as Lisa and Nance's grandmas! I'm working with a managerial situation right now with three generations of people and it's HARD to get everyone on the same technological page.
DeleteOMG, Lisa. Your grandma. That painted such a visual in my head. She has seen so much change in her life!
DeleteI, too, think the McGarrity chapter showed us the kind of marriage Katie and Johnny had. They were two people who actually talked to each other about real, interesting topics! I think there is such a sweetness to that.
Your grandma is amazing! She lived through so many inventions and she's probably just like, Facebook is easy!
DeleteI also think that Sissy is finally content - she doesn't feel like she needs to attract the attention of every man she meets (who could serve as a potential father to her much-longed-for-child)! I can't remember from my first reading if she does end up having a biological child in this book. Honestly, I remembered almost nothing, but that shouldn't surprise me because I'm mostly always like that with books.
ReplyDeleteYES I think we are living in historic times. My father regularly talks about the golden era of being a baby boomer. Good jobs, relatively stable political climates, outwardly stable climate conditions and, in Canada at least, a very robust social support system - pensions, free and accessible healthcare. A lot of those things are changing and FAST.
Quotes:
Chapter 38: “Katie was not as confident as she sounded.” I’ve read/watched so many fictional things where the parents put off this calm demenour. I feel like this is not me. My kids tend to know when I’m worried and stressed and I don’t think I hide it well. Sometimes I think this is good (to be keeping it real), but then other times I feel like I’m failing as a mother by buffering them from my true emotions. Like, when we had issues with water in our basement I couldn’t even dream of pretending it didn’t stress me out.
When Katie decides to keep the insurance policy on herself: “I wouldn’t want to be buried as a pauper in Potter’s Field. That’s something they could never rise above; neither they, not their children, not their children’s children.”
Really? Does a legacy like this impact succeeding generations this much? I think maybe these sorts of things mattered more then?
“You can’t eat a diploma.” Said Evy. So true. This is the hard balance of going for higher education; you have to pay money and generally give up - temporarily - an income. In the long run, you make more and secure a brighter future (generally) with more education, but to get there requires resources that so many simply don't have. The "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" statement very often rings true.
“When the time comes,” said Katie quietly, “that we have to take charity baskets, I’ll plug up the doors and windows and wait until the children are fast asleep and then turn on every gas jet in the house.”
“Don’t talk like that,” said Evy sharply. “You want to live, don’t you?”
“Yes. But I want to live for something.”
Wow. I'm a bit shocked by the vehemence these people had against charity. Why? Getting back on your feet was the goal and then, eventually, you could support others and pay it back. This feels like a generational and cultural thing? For years after getting married we lived in a subsidized housing complex and our kids' daycare costs were subsidized. We were trying to start a small business and had almost no income (we paid employees who then paid taxes, but our personal taxes each month totalled about $7, so we weren't really contributing to the tax system) and I was relieved these "charity" options were available. The goal was always to not need them and to contribute into those programs and that's exactly what has happened. But without that leg up for our family when we were starting out, I know we'd be in a very different financial situation right now.
Chapter 39:
“Maybe,” thought Francie, “she doesn’t love me as much as she loves Neeley. But she needs me more than she needs him and I guess being needed is almost as good as being loved. Maybe better.”
HEARTBREAKING. Poor Francie.
Chapter 40:
I am still incredibly distressed by the description of the “apelike” teamster and his “childlike” bride. Horrified. What is going on. I assume he's raping her and it just is so unsettling and awful.
Fun fact: I discovered that Katie’s new baby was born on my birthday!!!!
Elisabeth--I think it's important for parents of young children to be calm and steady in the face of tough or scary situations so that the kids feel safe. They need to know that the grownups are going to take care of things. Of course it's always okay for kids to know we are affected, but they need to know that we have the situation in hand for them. (Water in the basement--I absolutely empathize. We are dealing with that currently. Ugh.)
DeleteThe legacy thing seems sort of dramatic to me, too. Katie is incredibly concerned with the family's reputation and standing. So much is about how she is perceived in Society. I know that New York was absolutely this way during the turn of the century, especially among the upper classes. Everything was about proper behaviour and following the rules of Society. That it trickled down to the lower classes seems only natural. Francie and Neeley were aware of their father's drunkenness, but they still loved him. They knew that their mother worked as a washerwoman and janitress, and they were still proud of her. I'm not sure where the line crosses into Shamefulness, but I guess accepting Charity of any form, including a free burial in a pauper's grave is definitely over it.
The lines about charity were really hard to read, weren't they? I mean, everyone needs help sometime and whether that help comes in the form of a tax break or a box of food to eat, it shouldn't hurt to take help, should it? I guess I understood Katie saying she'd sell the kids' insurance, but not hers because she would be able to bury the kids somehow, but they wouldn't be able to figure something out for her, but the charity basket thing was harsh.
DeleteI also noted the line about how Francie thinks Katie needs Francie more than Neely, even if she loves Neely more. I sort of think that's how it is in my family and I appreciated it, even if it made me want to give Francie a big hug.
I thought there was a lot of talk about the McGarrity character; is this foreshadowing? Does he become more involved with the family...Katie in particular? Hmmmm. What he said about his own children was all sorts of crazy pants. I mean, I'm a realist, but picking on their appearances is horrible.
ReplyDeleteAn impossible wish: World peace!! Please?
I too was wondering if Sissy is pregnant, or if she is just so very happy now with her John and her baby (finally!) that she appears different?
There was so much change during Francie's childhood within her family and the world around her. I look back over the last four years and realize we had so much change in such a quick time, but look at us, rolling with it!
I had no idea what bands were within the baby's layette, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say baby Laurie was destined to be a Nirvana fan. 😜
Hearing the descriptions of their neighbors while Katie was giving birth was a bit of a surprise; the virginal sisters, the (rapist!) apelike teamster, Mrs. Gaddis and her broken Mother's heart.
I did like when Katie wrote in the family bible; going over the important dates prior to Laurie, then adding her in.
I loved the descriptions of the neighbors all witnessing Laurie's birth. It was such a fantastic reminder that all of those people--the virginal sisters, the rapacious apelike teamster, his tearful young bride, the sad Mrs. Gaddis, Floss and her deformed arm, and even poor dead Henny's ghost--were all newborn babies once. They were new to the world and full of promise and potential, carrying the hopes and dreams of their mothers. Mrs. Gaddis knew what could lie ahead, and that's why she didn't say anything. Very symbolic that she kept on going and corrected her mistake...in her knitting.
DeleteOh, those little snippets from all the side characters we've been introduced to was such a lovely interlude. I mean, some of it was hard to read (the apelike teamster!), but they were just so beautifully written in so few words.
DeleteThe one that struck me (well, in addition to the rapist) was the quote from, I think, Miss Lizzie, who said "At least she knows she is *living*." Wow.
DeleteAbout the bands--I think they used to be a binding worn around a baby's tummy to prevent hernia--to keep the bellybutton from protruding shortly after the umbilical stump fell off. Interestingly, mothers today can buy belly bands for their babies that supposedly warm the tummy and help ease colic.
ReplyDeleteInteresting! If I amend my google search to "baby belly bands," I definitely get more results. Thanks for solving that mystery, Nance!
DeleteOh that is an interesting angle. I had some other google images. popping up that made sense tome but this one might be closer to the truth...
DeleteOh, I'm so off schedule with ATGIB. And this is off topic as well. But I came here to say that story about you and Dr. BB and the standardized test scoring made me cry. Thanks for being good people, NGS and Dr. BB.
ReplyDeleteWell, we're good people who didn't take that job, but in retrospect, we probably should have so we could have fought the system!
DeleteI think the "bands" are swaddling bands. Here is a description: Swaddling bands are "long strips of cloth wrapped all around the baby" The purpose of wrapping a baby with swaddling is to restrict the baby's limbs from movement. The earliest depiction of swaddling bands have been found in tombs that are 4,000 to 4,500 year old in Crete and Cyprus.
ReplyDelete1. I am not worried about McGarity re prohibition; he is a minor character and may have enough capital to get through anyway. However, I do think that this part of the book is added to show that even though the Nolans are poor and their Dad is a drunk, they were envied and respected. I like McGarity; he has a good heart.
2. Impossible wish - people could learn to listen to each other more, even if we don't always understand each other. A wish that you could make come true for yourself - I would like to take time off and travel the world. A wish for when you grew up - if it were now, I would love to be a travel writer/photographer/videographer. I used to want to be a vet or a marine biologist.
3. I feel like I may have accidentally read ahead so I cannot opine on this question.
4. I think that the time during the book was a monumental time, but so is our time now. We just don't see or realize it as much because we are in it. Have you heard of Moore's law? If the pace of technology (to keep it simple) keeps doubling every two years, we could still have a lot of innovation ahead of us. But even if Moore's law is "dead" just look at what we have accomplished in the last 20 years. Top that with a pandemic and a global financial crisis and we may have more monumental events/inventions in the present than we think!
I haven't heard of Moore's law but how interesting! I wonder if we just always feel as if we're living in a monumental time because history is always happening around us, even if we don't understand it fully until it's behind us.
DeleteOh, swaddling bands. There are so many things about babies I just don't know about!
DeleteYou not opining about Sissy makes me think something's up! I'm keeping a super duper close eye on Sissy now!
I really enjoyed myself with these chapters. I really loved the way the story of Laurie's birth was told through the eyes of Francie and other women in the community. Also, I can't believe I forgot that Francie's sister's name is the same as my mom!
ReplyDelete1) I enjoyed learning more about McGarrity, although I hated the way he described his own children. Ruthless! I think he was a very lonely man whose family life did not turn out the way he had envisioned, so he sought it out in the people who came by his bar. I'm not particularly WORRIED about him, but it did make me think about Prohibition as a whole and what a wild time that had to be in our society.
2) Oh, how fun! My impossible wish is for Donald Trump to go away forever. My possible wish is for the two-bedroom apartment I want to come up at the perfect time and at the perfect price. And a wish for when I grow up is to having a beautiful community of women surrounding me always.
3) Hmm... I didn't notice anything too off about Sissy in these chapters. Like others have said, I think she's just very happy/content!
4) I definitely think we're in a time of change now. There was the pandemic that just changed the way our society functioned for a while and caused some irreparable rifts between people who wanted to pretend Covid wasn't a big deal and people who trusted in the science. And there are other changes happening with AI techology and politics getting more polarizing every year and THE WORLD BURNING. Ugh.
I love your wishes, Stephany!
DeleteAll these Laurie connections with the readers! I don't know if I know anyone named Laurie!
DeleteCan I add on to your wish that Donald Trump AND Clarence Thomas somehow disappear? (I feel like the Secret Service is going to come after us. LOL)
I am right. there. with. you. (I'd pile on re: local and state gov't but don't want to give the SS more ammunition... ;>)
DeleteOkay, now I've gone down a google hole reading about layette bands!
ReplyDeleteThis website is interesting...
http://sharonburnston.com/baby_linen/swaddling.html
Also the author of the website says, "Today we regard such support as unnecessary, so a minimum token belly-band is all that’s needed for your infant re-enactor’s authentic appearance, and even that may be justifiably eliminated."
The thought of baby re-enactors and concerns about authenticity makes me giggle.
The whole bit with Miss Garnder telling Francie's that her stories aren't good because she depicts things that aren't conventionally beautiful or noble. - ooooh! made me mad. And your story about grading tests....
- I feel like Mr. McGarrity is just another example of the infinite varieties of human unhappiness that Smith portrays. And the way people try to capture what they think they want.
- I liked the bit about the three wishes a lot - such a succinct way of conveying character. Neely's wishes in particular, seemed sad - his impossible wish being that he'd become very wealthy - how far out of reach that seems to him. I feel like there was more said about Neeley in those three wishes than in anything else I've read so far. I don't know if I have an impossible wish..., I think my wish the I could make come true would be to be braver, and my wish for when I grow up would be for my kids to be able to afford college (maybe that goes under the impossible wish???).
- Sissy feels so settled now. I kind of miss her antics.
- Aren't times always changing? I feel like the word "historic" gets over used
One line that I noted, when McGarrity is talking to Katie about Johnny:
As he wrung her hand, he asked, "No hard feelings?"
"Why?" she answered. "Johnny was free, white and over twenty-one."
I almost missed the reference that Katie made to the fact that Johnny was white - the way that she acknowledges that race is one factor that allows Johnny to get away with the life he had - it's so interesting to me.
Also Francie's thoughts as she returns from visiting her grandmother and Sissy -
"I guess the thing that is giving me this headache is life - and nothing else but." I feel like that some days.
What on earth do we need baby re-enactors for?! Theater? I need more explanation on that!!
DeleteI honestly don't remember, but I strongly suspect that Sissy will get up to more antics. I have faith that a leopard doesn't change its spots.
The line about Johnny being white struck me, too. Race isn't really covered much in this book since the focus seems to be on religion), but I thought it was super interesting that Katie acknowledges that it did give Johnny an upper hand.
1) I think they are devoted to McGarrity as a lens for Johnny. Johnny had no money but he had everything else. Whose shoes would we really want to be in? I mean, ideally, neither man's shoes, but it seems we are meant to understand what Johnny was able to give his family. That whole chapter was depressing. I also think the description of his children is how HE would describe them, not necessarily how Smith would describe them.
ReplyDelete2) Impossible - Worldwide tolerance of any lifestyle that isn't hurting anyone
Possible - Award-winning author
Growning Up - Bestselling author
3) I took Francie's comments about Sissy as others have - that Sissy is happy she finally has her baby and so she isn't constantly on the lookout for a man who can give this to her.
4) I feel like every generation has lived through some historic times. There's a whole Billy Joel song about it. I work with a lot of teenagers who think me living through the Challenger explosion and 9/11 makes me ANCIENT. One of them asked me if I was born during the Great Depression (I'm 44). I don't think most things feel historic in the moment. Sometimes they do, like Trump being elected (it DID create a rift) and Covid happening (widened the rift). I think Smith was just reminding us of all the things that were going on that Francie might not have quite understood in the moment but would certainly shape her childhood once she looked back on them. And possibly reminding us of what we have now vs. what they did not have then (cars and voting and such).
The POV shifts thoughout Katie's labor were necessary to show the contrast between even "virginal" women (the music teachers) feeling her pain and men being fed up with women crying about their pain. It's funny, because it comes right after both Francie and Katie say they hate women, but we get reminded that the majority of the women are not like those throwing stones.
I don't have my book or my notes, but somewhere Mary Rommely is said to be eighty-three (around page 330?). If Katie is in her early thirties, Mary was fifty or so when she had Katie. I think this is an interesting detail, as I imagined Mary to have been young like Katie when she married and had her children, but I guess it would make sense if she immigrated and then had her children later in life.
Oooh, great reference to We Didn't Start the Fire. Have you heard the Fall Out Boy version, which adds things that have happened since Billy's version came out? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LkVKCWL0U4)
DeleteAlso, I don't know you, but now I want to know what you write! :)
Anne, TAT is one of my best friends from college. The next time she comes to visit me, maybe we could all meet up! She's an amazing writer and (obviously, based on her responses to my dumb questions) a much more thoughtful reader than I am. She KNOW things about writing techniques and she elevates every discussion about literature and writing.
DeleteI will say that one of the things I love the absolute most about this book is when Smith strays from her "typical" writing style to show us things that might be a tiny bit boring to hear if she just wrote a paragraph about it - Francie's diary, the vignettes about what other people in the building were thinking/doing when Katie was in labor, the conversations Francie was overhearing while working at the saloon. I think it's really smart.
*Blushes*
DeleteI'm in! Although... will that cause some weird Sliding Doors effect with the collision of your URL and IRL lives, Engie? :)
DeleteAnd, totally agree about Smith's voice - although I didn't think about it til I read this. It makes me wonder (because I did not look it up) what her background/education was?
The book is very true to Betty Smith's early life living in tenements in NYC. She married young and had two kids and never finished high school. She studied journalism/playwriting at the University of Michigan and Yale, but never graduated because she never actually finished her high school degree, which is...bizarre. She wrote four novels in her lifetime. ATGIB is her first and it's the only one I've ever read.
DeleteLate to the party, as always!
ReplyDelete1) McGarrity and the WHOLE chapter being on him was odd. But it is interesting that McGarrity, of all people, is someone who "dreams" of a different and, in his mind, better family. He does not seem like someone who would have an imagination, to be honest! I'm not super-worried about prohibition but I do think his life is going to change dramatically in ways he just can't foresee. Also, I am not a jello person, so I was kind of grossed out by the "mound of jello" that Mrs. McGarrity shared with Francie. Ha.
2) What are your three wishes? Oooh, fun. I'm going to steal Stephany's impossible wish that Trump would vaporize, and that the Men in Black would show up to reinstate the sanity of half of the country. A wish I could make come true for myself? To eventually find my true happy place. And a wish for when I grow up? To finally prioritize that which makes me happy.
3) Ah, Sissy. The continuing conundrum. I agree with the others - Sissy is content, has what (and who) she wants, and is getting older, too. I would have been so tired of experiencing all the loss, and can imagine that she is relieved, in a way, to have everything settled the way she wanted it to be from the beginning. Would I have gone about it in the way she did? Um, no. But she did it her way (she is strong-willed, for sure) and now has what she wants and what she thinks she needs.
4) Are we living in historic times? OH, my goodness, yes. For all the reasons others cite. Disasters and political upheaval and the pandemic and just, well everything. Think back on how we worried about Y2K and the entire world shutting down, and not 2 years later we were dealing with 9/11 and all that has come after. Life is very, very different now. Some good things (online book clubs!) And others not so good.
Other thoughts:
* I find the juxtaposition of Katie petitioning "her God" and not getting a response vs. petitioning Johnny and "...that Johnny helped them" pretty interesting. Here is someone who couldn't rely on her husband while married, and could depend on her God, experiencing the exact opposite. I am not a religious person, but I was struck by Katie shifting her focus from God to Johnny in this situation.
* Do you agree with Mary Rommely - whose brand of Catholicism seems to be steeped in mysticism, or less traditional ways of knowing and belief - that we "give pieces of ourselves" to others when we interact with them? This is such a striking concept to me, that we put ourselves "out there" and by doing so... we lose a bit of ourselves, too? I admit, it freaks me out a bit to think of.
* Anyone else have truly awful pictures/portraits of important moments in their lives? I look at some of my grad pictures from college - when I had a truly hideous haircut - and cringe, visibly.
* Francie's mini existential crisis in chapter 39 fascinates me. She boomerangs from her "talk" with Miss Gardner, to writing a revenge novel (anyone else grossed out by pineapple mousse and imported mushrooms? :>), to burning her writings in an attempt to "burn ugliness". And then she kind of crumples, missing Johnny, wanting what no longer is. I found it heartbreaking and sad. Almost a delayed grief? And then her fear that Katie will also die and leave her, and running out to find her and make sure she is okay. She seems terrified, like she's just now realized how much her life has changed and will continue to change.
* Baby bands! So I think the answer is an amalgam of what others have said - swaddling bands, that were ALSO used as diapers. Dual function. ;) There are some fascinating places out on the internet where one can read about all sorts of things. Ha.
The Jello with whipped cream just sounds like a family get together with my in-laws. Ha. I guess it didn't really gross me out, but maybe it should. I just thought it was nice that Francie had a bit of extra food and that was probably really helpful for her.
DeleteYes, I sat there and thought a lot about how Johnny was somehow more responsive to her than God in his death. But, it does sort of reinforce the point others made earlier about how Katie and Johnny did have a good relationship in some ways, right? The talked about "real things" unlike the McGarritys. Maybe Katie feels like God has let her down as much as Johnny did? It's an interesting moment, to be sure.
Oh I love our discussions.It is always so interesting to see what other people notice and what is talked about. Often enough its things I didnt even think about or were so clear to me that I wasn’t paying much attention.
ReplyDeleteAbout the things you looked up.
I thought rummy meant that Jonny didnt drink rum. He wasn’t a rummy, he drank other stuff.
And for the bands in the layette I figured it was ribbons in the layette. In German „Band“ or plural „Bänder“ means just that strips of cloth. So I just figured that is what is meant.
About your questions:
1) I figured Smith is introducing him now because maybe in the coming chapters it he will be significant. Maybe Francie will start really working there? Maybe she is getting closer to one of his kids? Maybe his wife dies and Katie and him get closer? I am not sure… Or maybe it is in parts to fill the missing. Role of Johnny. The drunk is replaced with the place were it happened. Where he lost his soul?
2) Oh what a wonderful question….
one is an impossible wish: have all the male aggressors in the world have a revelation and step down from their roles as world leaders
another a wish that you could make come true for yourself: living a healthy life
the third to be a wish for when you grew up: finding my inner balance and have self-esteem
3) I wouldn’t have assumed she was pregnant. I thought she now lost a bit of her energy and joyfulness due to being a mother. I. Read it as she was just tired and lost a bit of the carefreeness she lived out previously.
4) It was a turbulent time with lost of changes being introduced to society. I believe we are currently also living through some of those. The development in technology is so fast paced. Usually during one life time it has not been so much when you look. Back in history. Take an old old person. From going around in horse wagons to self driving vehicles… that is a huge step.
I did mark down the following quote:
"I guess being needed is almost as good as being loved. Maybe better."
Francie's thoughts when her mother needed her to be there for the birth of Laurie. Unfortunately followed closely by being substituted by her aunts when it came down to the final steps.
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DeleteI now had to google band on layette myself and did find this: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Cotton-Blanket-Layette-Schell-Abdomen/dp/B01N1ZMVI6 Maybe back in the day that was something they used so the real clothes could be saved from spoiling and you didn't need as many sets?
DeleteI think your last comment about how it was unfortunate that Francie ended up being substituted by her aunts when Katie actually gave birth. I am so torn about that. On one hand, sparing her from that trauma was probably a kindness, but on the other hand, she had done so much work up to that point. I don't know. She seemed relieved to now have to be there, so maybe it was the best thing.
DeleteI don't remember McGarrity being significant. Now I'm really nervous about it. What could the deal even be?!