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| My notes |
Last week, J asked if people put this much work into a face-to-face book club. The answer, at least for my book club, is no. I'm lucky if people in my book club actually read the book, let alone look things up from it. They certainly don't prepare questions. BUT. It's a different vibe. I usually do prepare one or two questions just to get us talking about the book and then the conversation goes where it goes. It's different in an online space because the conversation is less likely to meander, although I like it when it does go places I don't expect when I read the chapters.
Anyway, my process for reading a CBBC book is basically the same as any other book for me, but a bit more extreme. I read with a pen in hand and mark down all the things on a piece of paper as I read - major plot points, character names/descriptions, lines of note, things I need to look up, hats. And then when I work on my post, I use these notes. Basically, if I miss something in my post, it's because it didn't make it into my notes!
I thought you just might like that little inside peek into my process.
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What were your overall thoughts on this book?
Here's what I think: This is not my jam. I do not understand human nature enough to have people just not say what they think. I think Archer was lame character to focus on.
However, I do feel like this book sets a tone that is hard to ignore. The claustrophobic feeling of how constrained choices were was palpable. You really get a feeling for elite New York in the 1870s. I also realllllly enjoyed Wharton's descriptions of the locations. You can tell that Wharton was a designer (remember how her first book was non-fiction work on design and architecture called The Decoration of Houses (1897) that she co-authored with Ogden Codman, Jr.?). I feel like that background came shining through in The Age of Innocence.
But, I'll allow that I probably missed the point of this one. Stories of poor little rich people annoy me almost as much as stories of famous people complaining about being famous.
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Pop culture:
Last week, Jacquie wrote a comment about a movie adaptation of the novel.
This movie was a 1993 Martin Scorsese joint that earned Ryder earned an Academy Award nomination and a Golden Globe for her performance, as well as an Oscar for Best Costume Design.
Other adaptations include a 1934 film directed for RKO Studios by Philip Moeller, numerous stage adaptations, and an homage in an episode of Gossip Girl. There's also an upcoming period drama miniseries for Netflix based on the novel. The cast is led by Kristine Froseth, Ben Radcliffe, Camila Morrone, and Margo Martindale.
Diane turned me on to a book called
The Innocents by Francesca Segal that is a modern retelling of the novel. I will admit that the first Goodreads review made me snort.
Did I miss any other major nods in pop culture?
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TAoI questions to ponder:
As always, discuss as few or as many of these questions as you like.
1) Who is the innocent in this novel?
2) What role do minor characters – for instance Julius Beaufort, Mrs. Manson Mingott, the Van der Luydens, Newland’s mother and sister Janey – play in this novel?
3) Edith Wharton’s original title for The Age of Innocence was “Old New York.” Which title do you think is more fitting?
4) How are Ellen and May alike? How are they different?
5) Throughout the novel, Wharton references a number of artistic works—the opera Faust, the Cesnola Antiquities at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Chippendale furniture in the Lannings’ home, to name a few. What role in the story do these references play?
6) Is it moral and honorable to protect others at the expense of one’s happiness? Is duty to one’s community more important than duty to oneself?
7) What scene from this book will stick with you? For me, it's pathetic Archer sitting on a park bench talking to himself in Paris.
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Most iconic line:
Typically I do a poll here, but I'm just going to ask you instead. What do you think the most iconic line from the book is?
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That's a wrap on winter 2026 CBBC! Thanks for joining and participating.
Archer is the innocent! The beginning sets it up as May, but by the end, we realize Archer had roses glasses on about everyone else. He thinks everyone is acting nicely if ignorantly- but by then end, he realizes they've all been working towards the same goal ( appearances and status quo preserved) and knowing his precious secret emotions for Ellen are read easily by them all. Even may, that pregnancy announcement, exposes her too. So he condemns himself, the weak soul that he is, to his marriage.
ReplyDeleteAt least he's not bitter about his kids having a better life.
The minor characters help expose the flaws of silociety. Regiba- marrying an outsider leads to her downfall, Mrs Mingott- how beauty is put above brains and character, Janey in society but the only (gawky) innocent besides Archer.( they didn't marry her off, now- she can't play the game right!). The writer friend- shows how bitter selling out your dreams for comfort can make you.
Glad I read it, won't pick it up again.
Wow. Archer as the innocent. Who would have guessed?
DeleteYou are making me realize Archer has more redeeming characteristics than I was giving him credit for. He did tell May the truth when he was supposed to tell Ellen about their engagement, but he didn't it. It doesn't seem like he's always a liar. And then he does seem to want what's best for his kids.
I love how you were always the first comment on these posts! Thanks for getting the conversations started. You're really pulling your weight in CBBC.
Thanks Engie for all your work on this! I'm sorry the last two books haven't been up your alley. Maybe the next one, you should just choose the book, one you like - I know that we will all follow along with your choice!
ReplyDeleteI am 100% only putting up books I've already read for CBBC in the future. I've learned my lesson! I still want people to vote because I feel like it gives people some agency, but I will have read all the books that up for the vote.
DeleteYou and I are two hearts beating as one with this one. All that I will remember is ending.
ReplyDeleteMy reference point for Faust is that it is the opera that is being performed in The Phantom of the Opera. I always assumed that the author used Faust to make a tie in with the story, but later on I read that the significance of Faust is only that it was the most popular opera at the time. So having Faust pop up in a story that is set in the 1880s is basically the same thing as when someone listens to a Madonna or Michael Jackson song in the 1980s - it's just a nod to the time and not otherwise significant.
I do love all the pop culture and design elements in the book. It's crazy because it was historical fiction at the time it was written, too!
DeleteI think there's another reason that Wharton chose Faust. Whittled away to its basics, it is a story about a man who makes an agreement with the devil in exchange for infinite knowledge and worldly pleasures. As is always the result of a deal with the devil, there is a catch, and Faust's is that he is trapped by his desires and, as is the usual bargain, damned (hence the term Faustian Bargain).
DeleteThe original character of Faust was much like Newland Archer, a well-read scholar who felt that he wasn't getting every bit of knowledge that he yearned for from his books. He wanted more, so he made a deal with the devil and gained the power of magic to be able to travel and also to summon the mythological beauty Helen of Troy for a romance. Later, of course, the devil must have his due, and Faust's life is destroyed. There are many variations of this basic story written by many authors. Wikipedia actually does a pretty good job of condensing them. The parallel is very clear here, and I think it's mistaken to believe that Wharton didn't do it intentionally.
Oh, wow! This really opened my eyes, Nance! What a parallel. Thanks!!
DeleteWell, I love this book. I know you're raising your eyebrows at the word "love," but I've been thinking about the book all week. I quoted it last week, but the line that keeps coming back to me is "There were a hundred million tickets in his lottery, and there was only one prize; the chances had been too decidedly against him." It made me re-think my son's recent engagement- I had been feeling that they were too young and hadn't known each other long enough. But you know what? YOLO! Seize the day! Don't let something you want slip away from you.
ReplyDeleteInteresting question- who is the innocent in this novel? Definitely not Mae or Ellen, so that leaves Archer. I never really thought about the title and what it means, hmm! I like it better than Old New York.
As always, thank you for organizing our book club! You did a tremendous job, especially since you didn't care for the book.
YOLO indeed. My husband and I were just talking about that on a road trip yesterday. 3/4 of our parents died young. My dad died at 56 (and I'm 46!). If I want to go to a trampoline class, I'm going to do it! If I want to get a nose piercing, I'm going to do it (I'm planning on going with Bestest Friend next time we're together). Who knows how long you'll be around, you know?
DeleteI really liked this book! Was it a bit of a slog in places, yes!! But also, I stayed up too late one night reading it and that is the sign that I am hooked. I really felt like the characters were compelling in this tragic way. I can see why it won the Pulitzer.
ReplyDeleteI 100% get why some people would DNF this book, but it was a hit for me.
I agree with Nicole. Pick a book you love next time!!
I am definitely picking a book I at least LIKE next time. I have new rules for myself about CBBC now. Ha!
DeleteI think the title is ironic. It wasn't an age of Innocence at all. Everyone had hidden motives or agendas or was keeping true feelings to themselves. Remember, the title is spelled InnocenCE, not InnocenTS. No one had much chance to be Innocent--there was too much going on that governed their every move, and everything they did, said, wore, or ate (or didn't) was scrutinized. One by one, they could act innocent of certain things, but it was largely a facade.
ReplyDeleteI really appreciated the craftsmanship of Wharton when it came to symbolism in this novel. I commented on her use of the opera Faust to Birchie, above. Having Ellen and Newland Archer linger among the Cesnola antiquities is another master stroke. Ellen and Newland are standing before the trinkets from the ruins of an ancient civilization as they contemplate making a ruinous decision--for one stolen moment of sex--that could ruin many lives.
There is also some symbolism in the names of the characters. An Archer is both a hunter and a Cupid; this blending could be symbolic of his search for a true love, an equal. Newland is a bit more obvious: new + land. Archer is tired of Old New York and its staid, traditional ways; he is stifled by them and wishes to break free of them. By the end of the story, he has done just that, even as he sends word to Ellen that he is "old-fashioned" still in some ways. And the van der Luydens, the oldest, most respected society family in New York, that name is inarguably Dutch, the first European settlers in Manhattan (and North America).
May Welland: May is a flowering, springtime month, and when we first meet her, she is in the blush and bloom of womanhood. Her name is simple and uncomplicated, just as she seems to be, especially to Archer. Her last name, well + land, seems to indicate that she is content and happy just as things are in the world around her, as is her whole family.
Anyway.
Among my favourite quotes from the book is this one, by Ellen: "It seems stupid to have discovered America only to make it a copy of another country. Do you suppose Christopher Columbus would have taken all that trouble just to go to the opera with the Selfridge Merrys?" I also like, "Each time you happen to me all over again," spoken by Newland when he meets Ellen at the station after Mrs. Mingott's stroke. Very romantic.
I love this book and highly recommend the DD-L film, especially for those who found the book difficult. Books like this, with so many layers and facets, are a joy for me.
Goodness, Nance, I wish I had had you as a teacher. This makes me like the book more in retrospect. At least Archer didn't start another Trojan War!
DeleteEngie, you are such a fantastic leader of these forays into literature! I love the questions you come up with and I love your insights into and commentary on the books. Today, I loved learning about your reading process. No wonder your posts are so detailed!
ReplyDeleteI am sitting here thinking about The Age of Innocence vs. Old New York. I much prefer The Age of Innocence. I don't know if there is "an innocent" in this book, although I could perhaps make an argument for each of the main characters in turn. Newland is so oblivious to the possibility that May could have hidden depths. Ellen seems untouched by the customs of the time. And May -- well, perhaps May is only the innocent in Newland's eyes. But I do think that the *age* of innocence is a fascinating thing to contemplate. Is it the time period in Newland's life before he met Ellen? Was it the time before he was married? Or perhaps it refers to the time period before things like divorce and women's autonomy were acceptable -- a sort of false innocence that pretended everyone behaved in the purest and most respectable way?
My favorite quote is one from Newland to Ellen. He said something like, "each time I see you, you happen to me all over again." Even though I thought Newland was kind of a douchebag, I found that very romantic -- the idea that a person is something that happens to you, that love can affect you like an event.
I also really liked the description of how people in this time period related to one another as being in a "hieroglyphic world, where the real thing was never said or done or even thought, but only represented by a set of arbitrary signs." YES. I feel that way, a lot, that people are communicating only a percentage of what they mean or want to say via their words; the rest is all symbols that one has to decipher, and there's no real way to know for sure if you've translated things accurately. That part of this novel was so relatable to me, that so much of communication is unspoken and open to interpretation. And therefore misinterpretation.
I loved this novel and I'm so glad I read it. Thank you so much for leading the discussion!
I am in a IRL book club and none of us put the amount of work into it that you do for us here. So, yes, a big thank you for all the hard work you do to put this together. I agree with others that you should definitely pick books you know you've enjoyed.
ReplyDeleteI loved this book and am glad I read it. Beautiful writing about an interesting time period. Not not one I'd want to live in, but it was fun to read about it.