Monday, February 09, 2026

CBBC Week Two: The Age of Innocence, Chapters 11-18

Past discussions:
Week One, chapters 1-10


Welcome to Week Two of Cool Bloggers Book Club (CBBC) for The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. This week we'll be discussing chapters 11-18. 

There is an Internet archive of the novel and all page numbers I use in this post will be from that edition. 

What happened in these chapters?

Archer is approached at his law office by the head of the firm, Mr. Letterblair. Letterblair informs Archer that the Mingott family wished to consult with Mr. Letterblair regarding the Countess Olenska's desire to divorce her husband. Letterblair thinks Archer should be in on it since he's going to marry into the family. Archer is a snot about it.

Theoretically, the idea of divorce was almost as distasteful to him as to his mother; and he was annoyed that Mr. Letterblair (no doubt prompted by old Catherine Mingott) should be so evidently planning to draw him into the affair. After all, there were plenty of Mingott men for such jobs, and as yet he was not even a Mingott by marriage. (page 91)

But then Letterblair gives Archer all of the paperwork associated with the divorce, including a letter from the Count to his wife that Archer thinks would hurt Olenska's reputation and therefore her family's reputation if information from it got out. 

Archer goes to see Olenska and he's annoyed because Beaufort is already there. They discuss the divorce and he recommends she forget the whole thing. 

"Very well; I will do what you wish," she said abruptly.  (page 111)

A few nights later, Archer is at the theater by himself because May is in St. Augustine. Olenska is there and she tells him she has stopped the divorce proceedings. As he's leaving the theatre, Archer runs into Ned Winsett, a journalist who knows who Olenska is because she was kind to his child. 

At his office the next day, Archer muses that he wishes he were in Florida with May. Working sucks, yo. He sends a note to Olenska and she responds that she's "run away" to Skuytercliff, the Hudson mansion belonging to the van der Luydens. Archer, of course, finds his way to Hudson the next weekend. He runs into Olenska in the park and Beaufort appears out of nowhere. A few days later, Ellen sends Archer a note asking to see him so she can explain the events at Skuytercliff. Instead of responding, he packs his bags and leaves for St. Augustine.

(Weird thing I don't understand. The book now switches between calling her Olenska/the Countess to Ellen. I shall follow suit, but I don't know why I'm doing it.)

Once in Florida, May is excited to see him. May's mother thanks Archer for convincing Ellen not to sue for divorce. Archer is secretly annoyed, feeling that by not allowing her to divorce, the Mingotts are ensuring that Ellen will eventually become the mistress of Beaufort rather than the lawful wife of some upstanding man.

Alone with May, Archer gets on her to shorten the length of their engagement. May asks why he wants a short engagement. She wonders if it because he is not quite certain that he wants to marry her. She is afraid that this is because he is still in love with his mistress of years past. May feels that if Archer is still in love, his passions for his mistress should come before his social obligations to May. Newland manages to reassure May that he loves her.  But then! Archer is a twat.

It was evident that the effort of speaking had been much greater than her studied composure betrayed, and that at his first word of reassurance she had dropped back into the usual, as a too-adventurous child takes refuge in its mother's arms.

Archer had no heart to go on pleading with her; he was too much disappointed at the vanishing of the new being who had cast that one deep look at him from her transparent eyes. May seemed to be aware of his disappointment, but without knowing how to alleviate it; and they stood up and walked silently home. (page 150)

Once Archer gets back to work (I mean, really, who can just go on vacation for a week with no notice? this is NOT the life I live), he goes to visit Mrs. Mingott. Ellen shows up and she and Archer make plans to meet up the next day. When he arrives at her house, there are three people there - Ned Winsett (the journalist from leaving the theater), Agathon Carver, and Ellen's aunt who raised her after her parents died, Medora Manson. Ellen's husband, the Count, had asked Medora to convince Ellen to return to their marriage. 

Archer overreacts, startling both me and Medora. 

"That she ought to go back? I would rather see her dead!" cried the young man violently. (page 161)

Everyone else leaves and Ellen and Archer are left alone and they discuss Medora's request. What follows is a scene that makes very little sense to me. Archer suddenly declares his love and says Ellen can get a divorce and he can break his engagement and they can get together. She refuses, responding that it was Archer himself who taught her that one's personal happiness should never come at the expense of pain for others. Just then, a telegram arrives from May, stating that the Wellands have consented to push forward the wedding date.

San is reading through Libby.

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Hat mentions (why hats?):

On the bench in the hall lay a sable-lined overcoat, a folded opera hat of dull silk with a gold J. B. on the lining, and a white silk muffler: there was no mistaking the fact that these costly articles were the property of Julius Beaufort. (page 102)

 She drew them away, and he turned to the door, found his coat and hat under the faint gaslight of the hall, and plunged out into the winter night bursting with the belated eloquence of the inarticulate. (page 111)

"Tell me what you do all day," he said, crossing his arms under his tilted-back head, and pushing his hat forward to screen the sun-dazzle.  (page 141)

...May, who was looking her loveliest under a wide-brimmed hat that cast a shadow of mystery over her too-clear eyes... (page 145)

She bowed her head, vanishing from him under her conniving hat-brim. (page 146)

Under her hat-brim he saw the pallor of her profile, and a slight tremor of the nostril above her resolutely steadied lips. (page 147)

hats and overcoats (page 155)

On it lay a ragged grey scarf and an odd felt hat of semiclerical shape. (page 156)

Jacquie's book

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Things I looked up:

Pharisees (page 94) - a member of an ancient Jewish group or sect distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law

a canvas-back with currant jelly and a celery mayonnaise (page 96) - This is the third time "canvas-back" has appeared in this book, so I decided I should finally look it up. It's a species of diving duck, the largest found in North America.

The play was "The Shaughraun," with Dion Boucicault in the title role and Harry Montague and Ada Dyas as the lovers. (page 112) - "The Shaughraun" is a melodramatic play written by Irish playwright Dion Boucicault. It was first performed at Wallack's Theatre, New York, on November 14, 1874. Dion Boucicault played Conn in the original production. The play was a huge success, making half a million dollars for Boucicault. Dyas and Motague were actors in the same time period, so these are real people 

By Wisconsin Center for Film and Theater Research - http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/fullRecord.asp?id=89173, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=30006551

as fine as anything he had ever seen Croisette and Bressant do in Paris, or Madge Robertson and Kendal in London (page 113) - Sophie Croizette and Jean Baptiste Prosper Bressant; Dame Madge Kendal born Margaret Shafto Robertson and W. H. Kendal - All of these actors appear to be real. 

bock (page 120, 122) - a strong dark beer brewed in the fall and drunk in the spring

and finally, about midnight, he assisted in putting a gold-fish in one visitor's bed, dressed up a burglar in the bath-room of a nervous aunt (page 128) - What does this mean? HELP ME. Is this just a series of pranks? Who has ever heard of either of these things? Please explain. 

black velvet polonaise (page 151) - a woman's dress with a tight bodice and a skirt open from the waist downward, looped up to show a decorative underskirt

un peu sauvage (page 158) - French for a little wild

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Lines of notes:

"You know, when it comes to the point, your parents have always let you have your way ever since you were a little girl," he argued; and she had answered, with her clearest look: "Yes; and that's what makes it so hard to refuse the very last thing they'll ever ask of me as a little girl."

That was the old New York note; that was the kind of answer he would like always to be sure of his wife's making. If one had habitually breathed the New York air there were times when anything less crystalline seemed stifling. (page 93)

This entire exchange made me so sad. Poor May. Going from her parents' control to her husband's. 

Newland Archer had been aware of these things ever since he could remember, and had accepted them as part of the structure of his universe. He knew that there were societies where painters and poets and novelists and men of science, and even great actors, were as sought after as Dukes; he had often pictured to himself what it would have been to live in the intimacy of drawing-rooms dominated by the talk of Merimee (whose "Lettres a une Inconnue" was one of his inseparables), of Thackeray, Browning or William Morris. But such things were inconceivable in New York, and unsettling to think of. (page 101)

Yes, it's unsettling to think of yourself having conversation with interesting people. *sigh*

To preserve an unbroken domesticity was essential to his peace of mind; he would not have known where his hair-brushes were, or how to provide stamps for his letters, if Mrs. Welland had not been there to tell him. (page 117)

Well, it's nice to know that weaponized incompetence is not new to the 21st century. 

...she gave an adipose chuckle and patted his knee with her puff-ball hand. (page 152)

SO MEAN.

Archer, changing colour, stood up also: it was the bitterest rebuke she could have given him. "I have never made love to you," he said, "and I never shall. But you are the woman I would have married if it had been possible for either of us." (page 169) 

This scene is so sudden and bizarre to me. 

mbmom11's book with Espurr as a gorgeous model


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Questions to ponder:

1. What's going on with Ellen and Beaufort? Why does Archer react so strongly to Beaufort?

2. Anybody else caught off-guard by Archer and Ellen's sudden outburst of love for each other? It seems like they've spoken very little to each other and it's been so fraught with talk of the divorce and her place in society. It's like a dumb insta-love trope in a modern romance novel. AND now we're in a "love" triangle with Archer, Ellen, and May.

3. Do we think Archer is cheating on May here? Should he be honest with May about what's going on with Ellen? Do we feel sorry for Archer because of how constrained things are for him? 

4. Anyone else annoyed that the POV here is Archer? I hate it. He's the least interesting.

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Homework for you: 

Okay, this book is set among the wealthy during the Gilded Age (1870s), a time in which the United States rose to power as an economic force, while more than 90% of its citizens were living in poverty. It's just a few years past the Civil War, but that war has (at least so far) not been mentioned. Immigration, poverty, voting rights - these are not topics Wharton has her characters grapple with. Since Wharton was writing this in the late 1910s/early 1920s in the wake of WWI, what point do you think she's trying to make by writing about New York high society? 

Are there any remnants of the Gilded Age near you? Leftover buildings, landmarks? Send them my way!

(If you want to send me a photo of your book, but forgot to do so this week, feel free to send it along this week!)

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Upcoming CBBC schedule:

Monday, February 16: Chapters 19-26
Monday, February 23: Chapter 27-34
Monday, March 2: Wrap-up

25 comments:

  1. mbmom112/09/2026

    I'm very annoyed with Archer. But he's grown up in this insular world, and he thinks he's such a cosmopolitan! He's really much shallower than he thinks. So he's a product of thr tiny society in which he lives- maybe I can give him a minor amount of sympathy.
    I think the suddenness of the "love " declarations must do with some of the unspoken messaging and cultural norms. Maybe their eyes have been speaking another language -or maybe it's all in his head. She however has recognized the few burst of humanity in him, and given their holistory and her current situation, its not surprising she finds him attractive. Emotional affair!
    I think May's dad must have been modeled on Mr Woodhouse from "Emma"- and I can't stand anybody mother.
    May knows Archer wouldn't press for a short engagement without a reason, and she's smart enough not to want to be tied to someone who outwardly pines for another. She knows somethings up! And so she marries him quickly once she gets that verbal declaration about the woman in his past.
    Ned Winsett is put in to show Archer what will happen if he caves into society's expectations, and to allow us to see how insular Archer really is. ( how dismissive he iis of the neighborhood! How a man just can serve in politics or emigrate. For goodness sakes, Archer, stop being such a jerk! He thinks he's different, but no way is he going to leave the society where he has a comfortable and well-known place, where he knows how to act. )
    I think the stupid pranks are the kind of things people would do at house parties to show they were "fun". ( same thing happens in regency novels). But it's stupid and he's showing how he's tied to the society and how mentally young he really is.
    I don't like anyone except Ellen and Mrs mingott- no one says what's on their mind!

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    1. Right, it's clear that May knows something is up, but I still don't understand what IS up. Is it just that he's randy? He was pressing for a short engagement before all this love declaration with Ellen, but do you think it's because of that? Or is it just that he wants to control her sooner? Money issues? I feel like I'm missing something!

      Putting a goldfish in a bed and killing it is fun?! I am such An Old.

      I'm a big fan of Mrs. Mingott! Wharton's writing about her is so mean, though!

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  2. First things first- I have the same library copy of this book as mbmom11. I'll take a book/cat photo this week and send it in! (Her cat is gorgeous!!!)
    Okay. I actually feel sorry for just about everyone in this book, including Archer. He's a product of his upbringing, and it's hard to break out of that. I feel like the tragedy of this book is that the timing is just a little off, for everyone. If Archer had met Ellen a little earlier, and weren't engaged to May, maybe he would have ended up breaking through all his constraints and marrying Ellen. Then he would have had a more adventurous life, which he's longing for. I'm feeling more sympathy towards Archer because he's a big reader (so he can't be all bad, right???) Also, all these characters are so young. I don't think we know how old Archer is, but I'm sure he's young. Think how much our own ideas have changed since we were in our early 20s- if he had had five or ten more years to mature I'm sure he would have made different decisions.
    I can't say anything in this book was a surprise to me because this is a reread. It is a little baffling that one minute Archer is urging May to shorten their engagement, and the next he's declaring love for Ellen. But once again- he's young. He's confused. And in that time period, people weren't really allowed to make "mistakes" like that (i.e. break off an engagement without serious consequences).
    Anyway- for all of you reading along hating Archer, I promise he gets exactly the kind of life he deserves, based on the actions he's taken so far.

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    1. I think it's interesting that you feel bad for everyone in the book. One of my least favorite types of book is poor rich kids. Cry me a river, you know? I think Archer's reading choices are interesting because they seem sort of immature for the time period. I think it does really indicate that he's just a kid. So you, so juvenile.

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    2. Anonymous2/09/2026

      Codex: don't snark at me it's just food for thought. This book is not meant to be liked it gives a glimpse into a different world. Try to empathize a little. (In the sense put yourself in their shoes). They are born into this world with its rigid rules. Poor little rich kids? You envy the mansion in france and the lifestyle (obviously) but look at the price they pay.
      Do they have real friends or just money interested ones?

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  3. I'm with Jenny. I feel sorry for everyone. They're caught in a system of their parents making and it is a case of generational trauma.
    Everyone is pawns in a larger game and it's pathetic and sad but it's also ALL THEY'VE KNOWN.
    I'm also interested in the theme of shame in this book. There is so much shame for everyone. Shame for Ellen for being divorced. Shame for Archer in loving a shamed woman. And then some people, like Beaufort, who seem to have no shame.

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    1. I mean, it's not fair that it's all Archer has known, is it? Wharton introduces Ned Winsett as a character to show that there is a life outside of high society. I mean, it doesn't sound like Winsett has a super fulfilling career, but neither does Archer!

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  4. Team Struggle Bus reporting for duty! There were a few moments this week where the book hooked me for a second and I was like "ooooh I get it" but for the most part reading felt like I was sitting in a dentist's waiting room with Archer.

    I think that Wharton was writing about the Gilded Age because it was what she knew, or she might be trying to compare it to contemporary times? It's hard to say.

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    1. I'm with you, friend. I don't want to read this book and I have to force myself to. I also can't for the life of me summarize what's going on because it seems like everything is the same level of import. I mean, is it important that he was at the theater? I don't know, but I PUT IT IN.

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  5. I agree with you that Archer's declaration of love to Ellen was extremely abrupt. I liked the dialogue between May and Archer when she asked why he wanted to move the wedding up. It showed she's got a bit of spark. I would definitely like to see more of that from her.

    It is, however, a time and place that requires strict adherence to a set of rules that have always been followed. Breaking out of those rules comes at great personal cost and these characters highlight what those consequences would be.

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    1. You AND Archer would like to see more spunk from May. Now that you've aligned yourself with him, how do you feel? ;)

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  6. * from last week: I'm listening to the audio book, although I did check a book out of the library. I was busy driving to a lot of appointments on Friday and I've been listening while on the stationary bike, - happy to be all caught up. Phew.

    1. I assume Archer is jealous of Beaufort - no idea what's going on with Beaufort (I like how his name starts with 'beau' maybe that's super obvious and not worth mentioning, but it caught my attention more so here because I'm listening to the book) and Ellen. I'm assuming he feels like he can have an affair with her since she has no place in society as she might end up divorced anyway.

    2. I was shocked at the sudden expression of love, but I did enjoy how it seemed like Ellen was laughing at him and he was so irritated saying He could not understand her. Ellen was sort of like, You told me not to get divorced, and here we are. Right? She seemed IMO to be pointing out that he was tied to the society's rules, but now that those same rules were interfering with his hope to get it on with her, he was regretting that or confused. No?

    3. I agree with Jenny that he's just SO young and I do think he's describing the dumb things he did at that party to remind us that he's A. young and goofy and B. doing what he sees as expected of him, since that seems to be the normal thing to do at a party. I do think he's sort of cheating on May here, even if it's just with his feelings - but if there are his feelings then he should be admitting that to May and she gave him the perfect opportunity to tell her this, when she accused him of wanting to rush into marriage to avoid falling for someone else. Ugh. I do feel a little sorry for Archer, because timing is everything and his timing is a little off.

    4. I don't really mind Archer's POV, but I would like to get inside May's mind a little. Like, what is she thinking? Does she like Beaufort? What about the husband? Hmm.

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    1. I'd really be interested in Archer's age - Jenny said she looked it up and he's supposed to be in his early 30s, but I don't know if there's evidence in the book we've read so far. If he's in his 20s, maaaaybe I can see some of this behavior. If he's in his 30s, I guess maybe I can see more why he's in a hurry to get married? I don't know.

      I'll admit I'm finding it hard to get into this book because I find Archer so interesting. Throw me a bone here, Wharton!

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  7. Anonymous2/09/2026

    Codex: As people mentioned above Archer is in his early 20s he's young and idealistic. He doesn't want to make decisions or be tempted so he speeds up the engagement.
    I disliked him but also sympathized.he realizes that his choice is poverty and ostracized or a potentially happy marriage.
    Also women were married early so they could be "molded".
    I'll paste yesterday's comment here.

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    1. Is there evidence in the book for how old Archer is? This is a serious question. I'm finding it hard to figure out how old anyone is. I think his age does matter.

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  8. Anonymous2/09/2026

    Codex: your post is gone so I'm leaving it here.
    Codex: These are the generational wealth superwealthy. Poverty doesn't affect them. Wars are a nuisance. Houses all over the world. If you have 50 billion and you lose 49 you're still fine.

    Archer is a floppy rag an untalented lawyer serving his needs. The attraction is inferred was always there. A person seems one thing when you meet them and turn out meh.
    He does try to help olenska but realizes: geez look what they've done to her. He doesn't want that to happen to him.
    He's not a twat. Just spineless.

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    1. Agree to disagree. He's a twat. Until proven otherwise, I'm on Team Twat.

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  9. Anonymous2/09/2026

    Until you asked I didn’t realize what has been bugging me, but YES - it is annoying that the POV is Archer. At the very least I’d like it to shift (by chapters) from Archer to May to Ellen to Mrs. Mingott. I am enjoying this book but I think I’d like it more if it was from May or Ellen’s POV. I didn’t feel Archer’s declaration of love to Ellen was abrupt because I was totally expecting it. I felt the whole story was building up to that and it was not surprising to me at all. It kind of icked me out though. *Dulcie

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    1. I'd love the whole thing from Mrs. Migott's POV when she never leaves the house! Imagine!

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  10. First: Yes, those were rather typical house party pranks even though they sound juvenile. It was the custom for guests/hosts to have a wide variety of diversions, and some were just lighthearted and silly. Think of TikTok stuff now.

    Olenska/The Countess/Ellen: If you notice, the changes are not random. Ellen is used intimately or when things are familiar; Olenska and The Countess are used in contexts when things are more distant, complex, or formal. It's because Ellen Olenska is truly living a dual existence; Archer is also trying to sort his feelings for her.

    Archer's musings about "having conversations with interesting people" is not what was unsettling. What was unsettling was the idea of salons like that in Old New York Society as it exists, and, if they do (like Mrs. Struthers' gatherings), what it would cost him in social stature to attend.

    1. Beaufort is nouveau riche and boorish. He's set his sights on Ellen for his mistress, is hotly pursuing her, and Archer is disgusted by him and that concept. Did he himself fool around with a married woman? Yep, but at least he is a Gentleman Of Good Family. Again, Wharton is a master of Irony, and she isn't trying to paint Archer (or any men) in a good light here. I think Ellen is trying to be polite to Beaufort: she can't outright--as a lady--say, "Hey! I'm not going to be your mistress! Leave me alone!" and open herself up to him denying that intention and further damaging her reputation. Women, as always, are screwed no matter what they do.

    2. I wasn't caught off-guard, really. Ellen was vulnerable to male kindness and reconnecting to her past. Archer already has a Saviour Complex, and she is exciting and foreign (literally), and that greatly appeals to him, yet she is still at her origin, of Old New York. The spectre of Beaufort made everything feel urgent. I didn't feel as if it were "instant" at all.

    3. Absolutely he's cheating on May, especially now. Emotional betrayal is real.

    4. I don't find Archer boring or uninteresting. He's conflicted, he's smart, he's subtly snarky and snide, and he's a great observer. I also think he's a good perspective because we can see what he so obviously misses, especially regarding women and his feeble attempts at rebellion against Society. His interactions with his friend Ned Winsett were especially revelatory (and almost prescient regarding politics). I also like that his interactions with May are more of a mirror to himself than he cares to admit/see.

    Troy, New York, is the location where not only The Gilded Age is filmed, but also the movie version of The Age of Innocence. I visited there shortly after AoI was filmed; it's lovely and picturesque.

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    1. Anonymous2/09/2026

      Codex: @Nance. Exactly on every point.

      @Everyone. Maybe not a great example but I called them a subgroup of old wealth. They still very much exist. Maybe not a great example but here it goes. London five star and above hotels compete. Old families go there for a month to do their meet and greets and business networking. Theyre regulars. The month might cost them 100grand but they make 30 mill. Contracts.The dinners are high end but tame. One of the hotels had the dumb idea to start attracting the nouveau riche (think celebrities and silicon valley).
      Since their children often come along seeing certain women cross the foyer for parties...these families will not complain but take their business elsewhere. Quietly and discreetly.
      five stars need their regulars. The celebs moved on, old wealth won't go near it.once reputation is gone it's gone. I looked it up. The rooms are down to 300 from 2000 a night. That's the "soft piwer" they wield.

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  11. I’ve been wondering about Archer’s age, so I looked it up online (without finding any other spoilers). It looks like he’s about 32, so not as young as we have been assuming. I was pissed off thinking about the goldfish dying because he wants to fake play along with stupid games. He is not really interested in these stupid games, he’s just doing them because it’s what is expected from a houseguest.

    I liked May showing some spirit, and I think Archer did too. Not that he would approve of it if it went against his interests/thoughts, he wants to control her and shape her, but I think he feels like it would reflect well upon him if she is smart and spirited.

    I wasn’t surprised by the declaration of love to Ellen. He’s been obsessed with her since page one of the book. I was surprised that she reciprocated. I feel like earlier in the book he mentioned their childhood flirtations or something like that (and she’s almost 30, which places his age a bit) but I haven’t gone back to look for it.

    His point about Ellen going to end up being a mistress because she can’t divorce was interesting, and shows that he does have a brain and understand the consequences of everything that’s going on. But he doesn’t care about anyone other than himself.

    So, why did Wharton write the book from the point of view of such a twat? I think she’s critiquing the mores of the time, and trying to show us how shallow the people in the upper society are.

    I feel like New York is on every page of this book. I’ve never read the words ‘New York’ so many times. Could this book have taken place in Chicago or Atlanta? In Paris or London? Likely not San Francisco, that was still the Wild West.

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  12. What's going on with Ellen and Beaufort? Why does Archer react so strongly to Beaufort?: Ugh he is SO JELLY. I think a guy like Archer needs another dude to like Ellen so then he can like her too. May is the quintessential desirable woman, so he doesn't need a specific rival.

    2. Anybody else caught off-guard by Archer and Ellen's sudden outburst of love for each other? It seems like they've spoken very little to each other and it's been so fraught with talk of the divorce and her place in society. It's like a dumb insta-love trope in a modern romance novel. AND now we're in a "love" triangle with Archer, Ellen, and May.: I love this Victorian quirk-- still really visible in the Anne books, too. There was just no real way to adhere to the cult of true womanhood (piety, purity, submissiveness, domesticity) and have any sort of relationship with the opposite sex. It reminds me of the way my middle schoolers couple up and have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" that they never actually interact with outside of, like, sitting near each other at lunch.

    3. Do we think Archer is cheating on May here? Should he be honest with May about what's going on with Ellen? Do we feel sorry for Archer because of how constrained things are for him? I do not feel sorry for him because of the myriad of intersectional constraints that May and Ellen feel. I think he was as honest as he could possibly be, and May responded in kind. I loved her for that whole interaction.

    4. Anyone else annoyed that the POV here is Archer? I hate it. He's the least interesting. I like him a little bit now. I know, I know. Clutch your pearls. I think he is the least constrained person in the book, so I guess I like having his perspective. He is free to move around and go wherever he wants and hit on 2 girls at once, etc.

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  13. I'm going to stream of consciousness my own thoughts here first, and then go read other smarter people's thoughts.

    1. I love your question about Ellen vs. Olenska. My interpretation is that he uses Ellen once he starts seeing her as worthy of his affection, and Olenska when he's annoyed at her or otherwise trying to keep himself unsullied by her poor reputation.

    2. I was not particularly surprised by Archer's infatuation with Ellen. Archer strikes me as a horny dude masquerading as a proper gentleman, and I think he finds Ellen a little titillating because she's so different and so careless of social conventions. I was more befuddled by Ellen's seemingly (?) reciprocal attraction to Archer? Although I can't yet tell if she *actually* is into him, or if she's just friendly and the dudes all read that as stringing them along?

    3. I was glad to get a little more insight into May in this section. I feel like she's just playing the game, which seems to be Get A Husband Or Die A Spinster. Bold of her to straightforwardly address Archer's motivation for getting married quickly. And I bet she knows it's really Ellen he's into, and not the prior mistress. She has hidden depths, and it's Archer's fault if they remain unplumbed most of the time.

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  14. Ok I didn't comment last week because I started reading late, but I'm all caught up now. I also found this section went significantly faster for me, possibly because more happened and possibly because I was more used to the language.
    1.What's going on with Ellen and Beaufort? Why does Archer react so strongly to Beaufort?
    I think Beaufort is the option available to Ellen, who is alone and isolated. I think Archer reacts strongly to Beaufort because he is a.) jealous and b.) both wants Ellen to be both a free-thinker and also conform to his expectations of female virtue.
    2. Anybody else caught off-guard by Archer and Ellen's sudden outburst of love for each other? I wasn't surprised at all by Archer's love for Ellen, but I was a little surprised by the reverse. I also question a little bit the sincerity of Ellen's feelings for Archer--is there any self-serving agenda here like she can get him to advocate for/change her family's mind about the divorce through a relationship with Archer? I think there is some level of genuine feeling for Archer, but I also feel like her options are severely limited.

    3. Do we think Archer is cheating on May here? Should he be honest with May about what's going on with Ellen? Do we feel sorry for Archer because of how constrained things are for him? I do feel like he's betraying May and that the conversation where she pushed him to rethink why he wants to get married so quickly should have made him revisit the engagement. On the other hand Archer seems too conventional to back out of the engagement now, and also I don't know what the impact of a broken engagement would be for May. I don't feel super sorry for Archer--he seems like he has the most freedom and options of everyone, and I like him way less than either May or Ellen.

    4. Anyone else annoyed that the POV here is Archer? I think I'd prefer the book from Ellen's perspective--I think the outsider view into New York society would be more interesting, and I'd like to see more of her perspective and get more of her backstory.

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